It worked for reddit for 18 years. They just need more volunteers.

40-90 hours a week isn’t sustainable, but adding a few more people takes it out of burnout territory.

That’s certainly true but the issue is that we don’t really have other options. Lemmy’s system allows for little delegation outside of giving full admin powers. There’s an issue to improve that but as with all of Lemmy’s moderation woes - it seems no one is working on it.

On the other hand, if the project is based on full time volunteer work by people who can’t afford to volunteer full time over the long term, surely that is a major risk to the long term viability of the instance?

this is quite belated but now i’m back to a computer so i can answer this at some length: this is a fundamental issue of the fediverse which nobody has solved. the money is just not there for this to be any sort of compensated job, even at the level of “monthly stipend between the admins” (because that’d double the expenses you see here at minimum). maybe if this site was pay-to-join perhaps we could make a scheme like that work but that has its own drawbacks too–and at least in our case could select for an audience which would exclude many of the very people we want to make a space for.

there is a brute force answer which may or may not work in the long run, which is “have a lot of people keeping an eye on the website”. that of course introduces its own vectors for issues but is basically the way we’re making this work right now, and will probably be the case into the foreseeable future unless people get much more generous with their spending here.

I want to add my support for the unpaid labor being reported as part of the financial report. It would add more clear transparency to the total effort involved.

The human toll is hard to quantify but should not be ignored.

I feel that putting dollar amounts on the work would be confusing to people, they might think we’ll take that money. I’ve thought about making a post to donate money to me personally because well, I need the money but I don’t know.

At the least I think it could be reported as part of donations/expenses? Rough numbers would be fine too (because the overhead of tracking hours is not fun). So I’m imagining something like:

400 hours unpaid work (2 full time people working, 1 part-time) (if paid, that’s $6,000 at minimum wage, $8,800 at a livable wage)

i can attempt this for the next expense report but it seems a bit academic. just estimating here, the number per month is already something like twice the total amount of money we’ve received over the course of the site’s existence, and several times what we received this month.

One idea that I believe could use some discussion is Beehaw merchandise.

Alright, apologies @[email protected] , I was assuming the worst with a sarcastic comment.

Apologies, I may have not been entirely clear with my wording:

currently keeping 7 days of daily backups ~ 50 GB a day Keeping 1 backup of a week per 4 weeks ~ 50 GB each Keeping 1 full backup of the week a month ~ 50 GB each

Gives us a current storage requirement of (7 * 50) + (50 * 4) + ( 50) = ~ 600GB for a month of backups.

I think in principle it sounds like a good idea. However, I’d caution against overlooking the administrative overheads that a formal governance structure would impose.

A cooperative would need oversight, accounting, legal and a ton of other instruments or functions to operate. Currently the hosting costs look like they’re about $500 a month, and I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that a formal organization that governs the day-to-day operation of beehaw can have overheads that easily go up to 10x or more over the hosting costs.

Right now, in my mind, beehaw is essentially a bunch of cool dudettes/dudes that are hosting a BBQ party in their backyard. They only have one rule, you are welcome as long as you’re nice to everyone. You can also choose to help chip-in for pizza and beer if you like, that will be very welcome. Otherwise, the cost of hosting this party comes out of their own pockets.

Now we have some generous folks who are happy to chip in a fiver or tenner here and there to keep the party going, that’s great. However, some attendees are now starting to get a little uncomfortable since the party is growing and the F&B pot is healthy. What if the hosts were to spoil the party by selling the rights to it? What if they start monetizing the party through other nefarious means, or begin to compromise on their “be nice” principle and let everyone in?

Perhaps we will need to elect a bunch of hall monitors to make sure this doesn’t happen. And let’s get in an accountant or two to make sure the F&B money is actually used to buy pizza and beer. In fact, let’s get a couple of lawyers to come in and make sure everything’s above board. Oh wait, since legality is now a concern, we better look into insuring ourselves against litigation risks. In the process of doing all these, let’s also have a group of elders to meet once a year and certify that the party is indeed running against what the hosts promised it would be.

But it all started only because a small bunch of cool people decided to have a free party in their backyard, and all they wanted was for people to be nice to one another.

The thing is, there’s a thousand other backyard parties out there and anyone unhappy with the way this party is organized is very, very, very free to go to other parties. In fact, they are actively encouraged to. That’s the whole point of these parties in the first place, go to one that you’d enjoy and have fun in.

Not sure if I’m rambling or making any sense. But to be honest, I wouldn’t blame the admins if this gradual enshittification is not what they signed up for.

It’s certainly an area that has been thrown around and I can certainly see the benefits. I, personally speaking, worry though that democratic models at such an early stage can be abused. I also worry about money being a barrier for entry as that could keep out good people that simply don’t have the means - I don’t know that I could spend a membership fee as a student with no job because of all this volunteering work…

I think a solution where the community gets some kind of codified constitution is a good one, but it requires both a knowledge of organizational law and a understanding of what makes the community great. If things get nailed down too soon, or get something wrong, it could really mess BeeHaw up. Maybe it’s a good long term goal.

I do wish people would not use start-up terminology like ‘runway’ - it’s a aviation metaphor, and implies an eventual ‘take off’ which is usually the point at which a start-up goes public or is sold by the capital investment firm to take their sky-high profits.

I actually have a different account for each of several popular instances (including some kbin and even Mastodon instances), in large part because I want to see how the different communities grow organically in environments where different admins/mods might have different approaches to federation with other instances, modding, enabling/disabling downvotes, requirements for creating a new account, communities, rules/norms, etc.

So far I spend most of my time on Beehaw with my Beehaw account, but I am still somewhat active on a few others. If this place ends up growing to the point where it needs to implement more formal administrative overhead of things like a constitution/charter and bylaws defining how admins, mods, and users are to interact and define the future of the instance, and the admins are able to pull that off, this will probably end up becoming my main home on the fediverse.

I realize we’re wildly off topic here, but how much is there really to discuss about the Aug. 1 indictments? You want 45 pages of factual details? Read the indictment.

It’s a criminal proceeding. I guess one is entitled to opinions, but the merits (or lack thereof) of a criminal case reside in the purview of attorneys. General IANAL discussion is pissing into the wind, so I’m not lamenting a lack of masturbatory discussion on Beehaw.

Unfortunately, the moderation and federation tools have received no attention at all. We’ve only noticed more and more problems…

I would really like to say yes but we’re kinda stuck in this situation, especially considering that .world is now 10x the size of Beehaw… We can’t take this moderation load while the tools are all broken and missing.

I think they tried. It’s just a hard question to answer. How would you guarantee someone something like that?