Well, America is so communist then, it’s not even close. None of their results were the result of any individual, it’s always a communal effort.
The only non-communism is a small personal garden, as long as there are more than two people working on something, it’s communism because community.
Either that, or the word communism means something very different, you dolt
Yes. All of our successes are the result of communal effort. It’s not communism because the means of production are controlled by a small group of people, who also absorb all of the excess wealth created from the communal efforts.
Reply back please. Your self-owns are cracking me up.
Daamn, you’re so close to the point I was making, you can almost taste it. Now you need to actually engage with it in good faith, for real. I don’t expect you do though.
Likening a Socialist country to a fascist party just because both have trains is the epitome of western anti-communist “Marxism.” There’s no materialism here, and you’re upvoted because the only Marxism approved within liberal spaces is the anti-communist kind. Michael Parenti, in Blackshirts and Reds, quite clearly sums up the role of western “Left” anticommunists:
In the United States, for over a hundred years, the ruling interests tirelessly propagated anticommunism among the populace, until it became more like a religious orthodoxy than a political analysis. During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them.
If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
Funny how Parenti himself recognizes China as capitalist:
While the Chinese government continues under a nominally communist leadership, the process of private capital penetration goes on more or less unhindered.
In the late 1990s, when Blackshirts and Reds was written, it really did seem like China was capitulating in the same way many other countries had, by letting in foreign Capital. It was only with time that it was proven to be genuinely limited in scope, and that the CPC had course-corrected from the Ultraleftism of the Cultural Revolution to a more traditional Marxist understanding of development. Parenti has since turned around on China, as all major Marxist-Leninist orgs who were skeptical of Reform and Opening Up have.
Further, Parenti himself is less of a Marxist and more of a “pro-Marxist.” His understanding of Marxist Theory is weak, what’s strong is his understanding of Western demonization of Communists and Socialist countries. He’s valuable because he nails western anti-communism.
Relax, it’s just a joke given how the image essentially is “communist is when many trains, capitalism is when one bad train”. Making a reference to Mussolini, one of the most famous liberals of all time is always gonna be funny
That’s what you had to say the other time you tried to compare fascist Italy with Socialist China, to the point of calling it “identical to how fascist Italy worked.” This is of course wrong, Italy was driven by Private Ownership, the overwhelming majority of large firms and key industries were controlled by the bourgeoisie, and Mussolini murdered countless workers and crushed worker organizations. The opposite is true of the PRC, which is an economy dominated by Public Ownership.
Your comment is essentially “China has good railways? Mussolini cared about railways, and he was a fascist! Checkmate, commies!” It’s extremely surface level to the point that any humor it may have had is thoroughly undermined.
My god, stop putting words in my mouth that I’m some kind of anti-communist as a whole due to not recognizing China as being Socialist. Sorry for viewing things through historical materialism and it not passing the sniff test I guess.
That comment was referring to the private model which, you’re right, is not the exact same in execution but it’s remarkably similar in principle given both systems’ state dominance in key economic areas with the co-existence of private ownership.
Fascist Italy did hold a significant portion of state ownership in heavy industry/shipbuilding/banking/infrastructure by 1930, so it wasn’t entirely driven by private ownership. China economy isn’t necessarily public either (at least depending on who you ask) given how it’s state owned with state acting as the surplus-extracting capitalist and having the final say rather than collectivized and owned by the workers.
I called you a “Left” Anticommunist, which I think is accurate. You’re overwhelmingly negative about Actually Existing Socialism, as in you deny it as such, which I don’t think is putting words in your mouth. The reasons you have given have actually rejected Historical Materialism, in our previous conversations you indicated that Socialism is a unique Mode of Production defined by the absence of all other forms of property relations, which entirely disregards the Dialectical aspect of Historical Materialism, ie how each Mode of Production emerges from the old, containing elements of both the old and the emerging society. There’s no “sniff test” done by you, no Historical Materialism from what I’ve found, just US State Department friendly “Marxism.”
Mussolini’s Italy and Socialist China are not at all the same, which is again utter nonsense. In Fascist Italy, throughout the 1920s privatization of state industry was the norm. In the 30s, the instituti were formed, which brought the bourgeoisie into government unity, quite literally a state designed from the 1920s to strengthen the bourgeoisie now further entrenching them. This was said in 1934:
“While nearly everywhere else private property was bearing the major burdens and suffering from the hardest blows of the depression, in Italy, thanks to the actions of this Fascist government, private property not only has been saved, but has also been strengthened”.
In China, this is obviously not the case. SOEs are publicly owned, as well as key industries, and in the medium firms the CPC has the golden share. The Public truly owns these, and the CPC has power over all Capitalists. Marxism is taught in school as the basis for ecomomics, and gradually the public sector is growing and exerting more power over the medium and smaller firms which are more privately owned. The CPC is not a “Capitalist,” nor is the NPC. The funds they bring in through SOEs, taxation, and more get used for development and social services, Marx talked about this in Critique of the Gotha Programme:
But “all members of society” and “equal right” are obviously mere phrases. The kernel consists in this, that in this communist society every worker must receive the “undiminished” Lassallean “proceeds of labour.”
Let us take first of all the words “proceeds of labour” in the sense of the product of labour; then the co-operative proceeds of labour are the total social product.
From this must now be deducted:
First, cover for replacement of the means of production used up.
Secondly, additional portion for expansion of production.
Thirdly, reserve or insurance funds against accidents, dislocations caused by natural calamities, etc.
These deductions from the “undiminished proceeds of labour” are an economic necessity and their magnitude is to be determined according to available means and forces, and partly by computation of probabilities, but they are in no way calculable by equity.
Further, Fascist Italy crushed Communists and worker organizations, Socialost China is run by Communists that strengthen worker organizations. Fascist Italy was designed to enrich the business owners, Socialist China works comprehensively towards strengthening pay year over year, eradicating poverty, and building towards higher stages of Socialism.
As a tangent, your comment implies cooperative property is the basis of Marxism, ie direct worker ownership, but Marx and Engels themselves rejected it as petite bourgeois relations. Exclusive ownership over a small portion of the economy cannot truly be considered abolition of private property, but protecting it. That’s why Engels describes the Proletarian State gradually collrctivizing all property until class struggle is resolved through “lower stage Communism,” or what we would call “Socialism,” before the state withers into the “Administration of Things,” which still wouldn’t be direct worker ownership but publicly owned and planned production to fulfill use-value.
The first act in which the state really comes forward as the representative of the whole of society – the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society – is at the same time its last independent act as a state. The interference of the state power in social relations becomes superfluous in one sphere after another, and then dies away of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things and the direction of the processes of production. The state is not “abolished”, it withers away. It is by this that one must evaluate the phrase “a free people’s state” with respect both to its temporary agitational justification and to its ultimate scientific inadequacy, and it is by this that we must also evaluate the demand of the so-called anarchists that the state should be abolished overnight.
I take what you say seriously because your type of views ultimately end up working against Marxists globally, and are often magnified in liberal spaces. “Left” Anticommunism is something that deeply permeates Western Marxism, so it’s important to call it out when I see it.
Communism is when trains run on time
’Communism is when communal efforts produce results.’
Accidentally correct, you dolt.
Well, America is so communist then, it’s not even close. None of their results were the result of any individual, it’s always a communal effort.
The only non-communism is a small personal garden, as long as there are more than two people working on something, it’s communism because community.
Either that, or the word communism means something very different, you dolt
Yes. All of our successes are the result of communal effort. It’s not communism because the means of production are controlled by a small group of people, who also absorb all of the excess wealth created from the communal efforts.
Reply back please. Your self-owns are cracking me up.
Daamn, you’re so close to the point I was making, you can almost taste it. Now you need to actually engage with it in good faith, for real. I don’t expect you do though.
Likening a Socialist country to a fascist party just because both have trains is the epitome of western anti-communist “Marxism.” There’s no materialism here, and you’re upvoted because the only Marxism approved within liberal spaces is the anti-communist kind. Michael Parenti, in Blackshirts and Reds, quite clearly sums up the role of western “Left” anticommunists:
Funny how Parenti himself recognizes China as capitalist:
In the late 1990s, when Blackshirts and Reds was written, it really did seem like China was capitulating in the same way many other countries had, by letting in foreign Capital. It was only with time that it was proven to be genuinely limited in scope, and that the CPC had course-corrected from the Ultraleftism of the Cultural Revolution to a more traditional Marxist understanding of development. Parenti has since turned around on China, as all major Marxist-Leninist orgs who were skeptical of Reform and Opening Up have.
Further, Parenti himself is less of a Marxist and more of a “pro-Marxist.” His understanding of Marxist Theory is weak, what’s strong is his understanding of Western demonization of Communists and Socialist countries. He’s valuable because he nails western anti-communism.
Relax, it’s just a joke given how the image essentially is “communist is when many trains, capitalism is when one bad train”. Making a reference to Mussolini, one of the most famous liberals of all time is always gonna be funny
That’s what you had to say the other time you tried to compare fascist Italy with Socialist China, to the point of calling it “identical to how fascist Italy worked.” This is of course wrong, Italy was driven by Private Ownership, the overwhelming majority of large firms and key industries were controlled by the bourgeoisie, and Mussolini murdered countless workers and crushed worker organizations. The opposite is true of the PRC, which is an economy dominated by Public Ownership.
Your comment is essentially “China has good railways? Mussolini cared about railways, and he was a fascist! Checkmate, commies!” It’s extremely surface level to the point that any humor it may have had is thoroughly undermined.
My god, stop putting words in my mouth that I’m some kind of anti-communist as a whole due to not recognizing China as being Socialist. Sorry for viewing things through historical materialism and it not passing the sniff test I guess.
That comment was referring to the private model which, you’re right, is not the exact same in execution but it’s remarkably similar in principle given both systems’ state dominance in key economic areas with the co-existence of private ownership.
Fascist Italy did hold a significant portion of state ownership in heavy industry/shipbuilding/banking/infrastructure by 1930, so it wasn’t entirely driven by private ownership. China economy isn’t necessarily public either (at least depending on who you ask) given how it’s state owned with state acting as the surplus-extracting capitalist and having the final say rather than collectivized and owned by the workers.
I called you a “Left” Anticommunist, which I think is accurate. You’re overwhelmingly negative about Actually Existing Socialism, as in you deny it as such, which I don’t think is putting words in your mouth. The reasons you have given have actually rejected Historical Materialism, in our previous conversations you indicated that Socialism is a unique Mode of Production defined by the absence of all other forms of property relations, which entirely disregards the Dialectical aspect of Historical Materialism, ie how each Mode of Production emerges from the old, containing elements of both the old and the emerging society. There’s no “sniff test” done by you, no Historical Materialism from what I’ve found, just US State Department friendly “Marxism.”
Mussolini’s Italy and Socialist China are not at all the same, which is again utter nonsense. In Fascist Italy, throughout the 1920s privatization of state industry was the norm. In the 30s, the instituti were formed, which brought the bourgeoisie into government unity, quite literally a state designed from the 1920s to strengthen the bourgeoisie now further entrenching them. This was said in 1934:
In China, this is obviously not the case. SOEs are publicly owned, as well as key industries, and in the medium firms the CPC has the golden share. The Public truly owns these, and the CPC has power over all Capitalists. Marxism is taught in school as the basis for ecomomics, and gradually the public sector is growing and exerting more power over the medium and smaller firms which are more privately owned. The CPC is not a “Capitalist,” nor is the NPC. The funds they bring in through SOEs, taxation, and more get used for development and social services, Marx talked about this in Critique of the Gotha Programme:
Further, Fascist Italy crushed Communists and worker organizations, Socialost China is run by Communists that strengthen worker organizations. Fascist Italy was designed to enrich the business owners, Socialist China works comprehensively towards strengthening pay year over year, eradicating poverty, and building towards higher stages of Socialism.
As a tangent, your comment implies cooperative property is the basis of Marxism, ie direct worker ownership, but Marx and Engels themselves rejected it as petite bourgeois relations. Exclusive ownership over a small portion of the economy cannot truly be considered abolition of private property, but protecting it. That’s why Engels describes the Proletarian State gradually collrctivizing all property until class struggle is resolved through “lower stage Communism,” or what we would call “Socialism,” before the state withers into the “Administration of Things,” which still wouldn’t be direct worker ownership but publicly owned and planned production to fulfill use-value.
I take what you say seriously because your type of views ultimately end up working against Marxists globally, and are often magnified in liberal spaces. “Left” Anticommunism is something that deeply permeates Western Marxism, so it’s important to call it out when I see it.