It’s not a stretch, it’s outright false to call it communism or socialism, systems which necessitate the abolishment of capitalist mode of production (commodity production, private ownership, markets) and money. China, meanwhile, literally has billionaires, still produces things under capitalist mode of production and the only oddity it has compared to other Capitalist countries is partially nationalized economy (which Mussolini has also done, it’s not socialism by itself).
democracy is a far stretch though, isnt it? And capitalist is also not entirely true, when entire industry branches are nationalized, planned and not privatized
You can have disagreements within a single party. Like how in the US they banned communist parties because it didn’t align with the capitalist ideals that all American parties are required to align with.
It’s like burning down a house and asking what’s the problem after the fire has gone out. Repercussions last a long time. The cultural changes produced go on for generations.
Anyways, none of that matters cause this is America. We just did the unconstitutional thing at the State level instead.
Socialism does not necessitate the abolishment of commodity production in totality to be considered Socialist, just that the society we are analyzing is working towards abolishing it in the future, which is further cemented by running an economy where the overwhelming majority of large firms and key industries are in the public sector and thus have leverage over the rest of the economy.
This is because no system is static. Whoever controls the Means of Production controls their development, and in which direction. As production improves, centralization increases, and state management becomes more feasible and more fundamentally necessary. This propels further socialization of the economy, as long as there is a dictatorship of the proletariat, the development of the productive forces drives the development to higher and more developed stages of Socialism, eventually giving way to the establishment of Communism.
Further, to compare China to fascist Mussolini is just absurd. Mussolini had minor nationalizations, in order to support the Capitalist state. In China, it’s fundamentally the opposite. Engels went over the difference in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific:
But the modern state, too, is only the organization with which bourgeois society provides itself in order to maintain the general external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against encroachments either by the workers or by individual capitalists. The modern state, whatever its form, is an essentially capitalist machine, the state of the capitalists, the ideal aggregate capitalist. The more productive forces it takes over into its possession, the more it becomes a real aggregate capitalist, the more citizens it exploits. The workers remain wage-workers, proletarians. The capitalist relationship is not abolished, rather it is pushed to the limit. But at this limit it changes into its opposite. State ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but it contains within itself the formal means, the handle to the solution.
Engels is specifically speaking about economies where the state is thoroughly bourgeois, and thus the character of the state ownership is to support Capitalism. This is not the case for China, however, which has gradually been seeing large gains for the working class and the Capitalists within China thoroughly submissive to the proletarian state. China has already had its revolution, it did not abandon it, neither did Cuba, Vietnam, etc. This is supported by what Engels says later:
The first act in which the state really comes forward as the representative of the whole of society – the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society – is at the same time its last independent act as a state. The interference of the state power in social relations becomes superfluous in one sphere after another, and then dies away of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things and the direction of the processes of production. The state is not “abolished”, it withers away. It is by this that one must evaluate the phrase “a free people’s state” with respect both to its temporary agitational justification and to its ultimate scientific inadequacy, and it is by this that we must also evaluate the demand of the so-called anarchists that the state should be abolished overnight.
Production is gradually transformed into public property as it develops and is more capable of being publicly owned and planned.
But you’ve already been explained this before, repeatedly. Your stance is that there can be no such thing as Socialism until commodity production, markets, and money all cease to exist, when in all likelihood vestigial elements of each may continue to exist even in the earliest stages of Communism, if we agree with Marx. Your stance is the “One Drop Rule,” which eliminates the entirety of Dialectics and treats Socialism as a unique mode of production defined by purity, while Capitalism, Feudalism, and so forth were all defined by which element was the principle aspect, as no system has ever truly been “pure.” This is plainly a wrong stance to take.
“CCCP” is the “USSR,” so no. I think you mean “CCP,” which stands for “Chinese Communist Party,” although the preferred term is “CPC,” or “Communist Party of China,” as is the international standard designation for Communist Parties.
Either way, the CPC does have control over the economy, including the private sector, through mechanisms like “the golden share.” Even further, key industries like steel, energy, etc are publicly owned and controlled, hence the companies that do exist in the private sector must still rely on the public sector and play by the rules or else they can’t actually do business.
I answered over here, China is a Socialist economy trying to build up to Communism. Billionaires wouldn’t really exist in Communism, but China hasn’t managed to abolish the commodity form in general yet, it takes time and most importantly development of the productive forces.
The PRC is a Socialist economy. The overwhelming majority of the economy is in the publiv sector, and is subject to government planning and outside of the hands of Capitalists. There’s a decent chunk of the economy in the cooperative sector that needs to be developed more in order to fold it into the public sector, usually in agriculture. There’s also a good deal of private property, which is handy for rapid development but of course creates contradictions, which requires a state that will resolve contradictions in favor of the working class.
The difference between social democracy and the PRC’s economy is where the principle aspect of the economy lies, the private sector or the public. The reason the principle aspect is important is because it determines to a good degree the balance of class power. Countries like Norway have broad safety nets, but largely fund them from exploitation of the Global South, and have an economy dominated by private interests.
The principle aspect, in short, is whichever form of property holds the large firms and key industries, as well as the state. In China, this is overwhelmingly the public sector.
China has a numver of contradictions it will have to solve over time. Cooperative property, like Huawei, as well as Private Property, will have to all be folded into the public sector. Commodity production will need to be abolished. Wealth disparity will need to be reigned in far more. However, these are problems to overcome, not proof of China being Capitalist.
to be fair, in communism corruption and favoritism have always been creating rich people as well, similar to capitalism, but usually not in the same scale. greed is a problem that has to be addressed.
Then that system is not communist regardless of what they call themselves or what their political opponent calls them! If they are in a fundamental opposition to the work of Marx then they are not communist
That’s the problem though, communism is ‘everyone puts their resources in a big pile and then we re-ditribute them evenly’ and then you realise you need someone to administrate the distribution and hope like an idiot that they don’t just take the whole pile for themselves. Capitalism is ‘everyone maintains their own pile’ and you hope like an idiot that the people with the biggest piles don’t conspire to steal everyone elses for themselves.
Communism is not “everyone puts their resources in a big pile and we re-distribute them evenly.” Marx blasted the “equalitarians” who wished to do so. Communism is about collectively running production to fulfill the needs of the people. Your random anecdote can best be countered by asking why managers of single payer healthcare institutions aren’t just taking all of the surgery for themselves, or why post office managers aren’t shipping all of their own packages instead of others.
Now, Social programs are not “socialism” themselves, but these are quick examples.
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Also, Japan is very capitalistic and they have amazing trains.
look I don’t care who’s communist and who’s capitalist, we need them trains
It’s not a stretch, it’s outright false to call it communism or socialism, systems which necessitate the abolishment of capitalist mode of production (commodity production, private ownership, markets) and money. China, meanwhile, literally has billionaires, still produces things under capitalist mode of production and the only oddity it has compared to other Capitalist countries is partially nationalized economy (which Mussolini has also done, it’s not socialism by itself).
It’s just a social democracy.
democracy is a far stretch though, isnt it? And capitalist is also not entirely true, when entire industry branches are nationalized, planned and not privatized
Isn’t there only one political party in China? How is that democracy? Not being hostile, genuinely curious how that would work
You can have disagreements within a single party. Like how in the US they banned communist parties because it didn’t align with the capitalist ideals that all American parties are required to align with.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954
Brutal.
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It’s like burning down a house and asking what’s the problem after the fire has gone out. Repercussions last a long time. The cultural changes produced go on for generations.
Anyways, none of that matters cause this is America. We just did the unconstitutional thing at the State level instead.
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/GV/htm/GV.557.htm
Please read and hit me with some more complaints. Maybe if I keep knocking them down you will eventually change your mind :)
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I think people have some degree of chouce at the more local levels, but you’re right.
Wikipedia lists 9 parties in the NPC
Cool, thanks, TIL
You should also learn that those parties are subsidiaries of CCP, the governing party. They are not actual alternatives.
And all of those parties are listed as being under the control of CCP. So it is a one party state.
Socialism does not necessitate the abolishment of commodity production in totality to be considered Socialist, just that the society we are analyzing is working towards abolishing it in the future, which is further cemented by running an economy where the overwhelming majority of large firms and key industries are in the public sector and thus have leverage over the rest of the economy.
This is because no system is static. Whoever controls the Means of Production controls their development, and in which direction. As production improves, centralization increases, and state management becomes more feasible and more fundamentally necessary. This propels further socialization of the economy, as long as there is a dictatorship of the proletariat, the development of the productive forces drives the development to higher and more developed stages of Socialism, eventually giving way to the establishment of Communism.
Further, to compare China to fascist Mussolini is just absurd. Mussolini had minor nationalizations, in order to support the Capitalist state. In China, it’s fundamentally the opposite. Engels went over the difference in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific:
Engels is specifically speaking about economies where the state is thoroughly bourgeois, and thus the character of the state ownership is to support Capitalism. This is not the case for China, however, which has gradually been seeing large gains for the working class and the Capitalists within China thoroughly submissive to the proletarian state. China has already had its revolution, it did not abandon it, neither did Cuba, Vietnam, etc. This is supported by what Engels says later:
Production is gradually transformed into public property as it develops and is more capable of being publicly owned and planned.
But you’ve already been explained this before, repeatedly. Your stance is that there can be no such thing as Socialism until commodity production, markets, and money all cease to exist, when in all likelihood vestigial elements of each may continue to exist even in the earliest stages of Communism, if we agree with Marx. Your stance is the “One Drop Rule,” which eliminates the entirety of Dialectics and treats Socialism as a unique mode of production defined by purity, while Capitalism, Feudalism, and so forth were all defined by which element was the principle aspect, as no system has ever truly been “pure.” This is plainly a wrong stance to take.
Lets call it state capitalist, as thats the proper term
It’s not even that, given how there’s a decent chunk of their economy owned by private individuals
As I understand it, the majority shareholder is the cccp in those little capitalist bubbles?
“CCCP” is the “USSR,” so no. I think you mean “CCP,” which stands for “Chinese Communist Party,” although the preferred term is “CPC,” or “Communist Party of China,” as is the international standard designation for Communist Parties.
Either way, the CPC does have control over the economy, including the private sector, through mechanisms like “the golden share.” Even further, key industries like steel, energy, etc are publicly owned and controlled, hence the companies that do exist in the private sector must still rely on the public sector and play by the rules or else they can’t actually do business.
?
carbonyl cyanide m-chlorophenylhydrazone
Ah, fair enough, there is that too.
The term state capitalism cover a lot of the basics of the Chinese system.
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I answered over here, China is a Socialist economy trying to build up to Communism. Billionaires wouldn’t really exist in Communism, but China hasn’t managed to abolish the commodity form in general yet, it takes time and most importantly development of the productive forces.
@[email protected] how does it work in China, again?
The PRC is a Socialist economy. The overwhelming majority of the economy is in the publiv sector, and is subject to government planning and outside of the hands of Capitalists. There’s a decent chunk of the economy in the cooperative sector that needs to be developed more in order to fold it into the public sector, usually in agriculture. There’s also a good deal of private property, which is handy for rapid development but of course creates contradictions, which requires a state that will resolve contradictions in favor of the working class.
The difference between social democracy and the PRC’s economy is where the principle aspect of the economy lies, the private sector or the public. The reason the principle aspect is important is because it determines to a good degree the balance of class power. Countries like Norway have broad safety nets, but largely fund them from exploitation of the Global South, and have an economy dominated by private interests.
The principle aspect, in short, is whichever form of property holds the large firms and key industries, as well as the state. In China, this is overwhelmingly the public sector.
China has a numver of contradictions it will have to solve over time. Cooperative property, like Huawei, as well as Private Property, will have to all be folded into the public sector. Commodity production will need to be abolished. Wealth disparity will need to be reigned in far more. However, these are problems to overcome, not proof of China being Capitalist.
Thanks! Great input, as always
No problem!
to be fair, in communism corruption and favoritism have always been creating rich people as well, similar to capitalism, but usually not in the same scale. greed is a problem that has to be addressed.
Then that system is not communist regardless of what they call themselves or what their political opponent calls them! If they are in a fundamental opposition to the work of Marx then they are not communist
That’s the problem though, communism is ‘everyone puts their resources in a big pile and then we re-ditribute them evenly’ and then you realise you need someone to administrate the distribution and hope like an idiot that they don’t just take the whole pile for themselves. Capitalism is ‘everyone maintains their own pile’ and you hope like an idiot that the people with the biggest piles don’t conspire to steal everyone elses for themselves.
Communism is not “everyone puts their resources in a big pile and we re-distribute them evenly.” Marx blasted the “equalitarians” who wished to do so. Communism is about collectively running production to fulfill the needs of the people. Your random anecdote can best be countered by asking why managers of single payer healthcare institutions aren’t just taking all of the surgery for themselves, or why post office managers aren’t shipping all of their own packages instead of others.
Now, Social programs are not “socialism” themselves, but these are quick examples.
China is sentencing billionaires to death. You’re just Sinophobic.