The DNC won’t improve things because…[bunch of nonsense]
Why the fuck would you think that the DNC has the power to “improve things”? The DNC is no different from the RNC. Neither of them have any power at all over any branch of government. The 2 Dem organizations with 100% of the actual power to make laws are the HDC and the SDC.
I agree. We need time to build a leftist party or to fundamentally change the Democratic party. I’m not opposed to completely rewiring the Republican party if it’s a faster option.
We can get more time by voting for the least fascist option. That way we won’t be sent off El Salvador while we’re trying to fix things.
There have been such attempts over the previous 120 years. They were all failures because of structural reasons.
or to fundamentally change the Democratic party
Yes that would be fantastic and definitely needs to happen. And it will happen sooner or later. The problem is that we need much more “sooner” and much less “later”. We only have so many years to live.
That’s your problem, thinking you’re rewarding Democrats somehow by voting for them rather than doing damage mitigation for the country. They’re rich and will be fine regardless of who you vote for - you’re only making things worse for yourself by not voting for the lesser of two evils.
You say “Thats your problem” like you think the DNC can win without these people you talk down to.
It is our problem. You and me and everybody. Because we are the primary losers whenever the GOP wins elections. Not well to do politicians. They are going to be fine either way.
We’ve voted blue no matter who for decades and look where it got us.
30 million more people with health insurance? Raising taxes on billionaires instead of cutting them?
Maybe democrats should do something to earn our votes.
Nobody who voted for Harris were trying to do a f*cking personal favor for her. We were all trying to do ourselves and the country a favor. Some other person has to earn your right to permit you to do yourself a personal favor? The rest of us are simply claiming that right for ourselves because we would be fools not to.
It’s more likely to be than letting fascists win, although a lot of work would have to be done primarying the corpos and getting progressives in there. That’s not even a possibility when the GOP has power.
No, voting for not-facists isn’t letting the fascists win. People voting for fascists and refusing to vote against them are. They may be doing it because the not-fascists suck, but the result is the same.
It doesn’t matter if the party doesn’t change. We can keep sleepwalking into it or crash into it, the result will be the same. We must change the Democratic party to avoid disaster.
The thing about voting for the “least fascist” is you’re still voting for a fascist.
The energy is better spent preparing to remove the fascists. Get a gun, get organized with your community, build up shared resources, and prepare for the shoe to drop.
The thing about voting for the “least fascist” is you’re still voting for a fascist.
Good thing I’m voting for a democrat and not a fascist then.
Get a gun, get organized with your community, build up shared resources, and prepare for the shoe to drop.
The thing about supporting a Communist overthrow of democracy is that you’re still supporting a Fascist overthrow of democracy with the same end result.
For a capitalist party? Absolutely not. You’re giving them consent to govern on your behalf, and reinforcing their legitimacy.
I am glad you agree that consent is important. The Communists ruled Russia for 74 years without anybody’s consent, so I will assume you understand as all of us do that they are every bit as bad as their Fascist allies.
It grants you slower fascism rather than fast fascism.
One day of voting for Democrats seems like it could prevent a lot of bad from happening. It’s a pretty good bang for your buck in terms of time spent organizing.
As far as consent and legitimacy goes, that’s more of a media thing, not a voting thing.
No, that’s a reflection of the privilege you enjoy personally under Democrats. There are many, many people who have suffered and died under the fascism of Democrats as well.
Once you’re advocating for voting for a genocidal party as ‘harm reduction’, it’s very clearly just an argument of maintaining personal privilege.
Also, the harm reduction argument is made up. Once you compare their actual policies, and not what they campaign on, you’ll see the difference between the two parties is nonexistent. Which is as expected from two parties accepting money from the same oligarchs.
Once you’re advocating for voting for a genocidal party as ‘harm reduction’,
Oh hey I’m glad you brought up “genocide”. You remind me very much of Trump and his whoppers. But this gives us an opportunity to review Lenin and Stalin’s genocide.
I agree they both are fed by the same oligarchs. And I agree that the fascism of the Democrats have killed people.
But you can’t say the difference is non-existent. Was Biden or Kamala going to start shipping citizens over El Salvador? I think not and arguing that the two parties are the same is very silly.
Also thanks to first pass the post not voting for Democrats is giving more power to Republicans. Whose fascism will kill way more than the Democratic fascism.
So your argument is Biden deported more people. Ok, I don’t disagree with those articles. Now that it is May, I wonder what the numbers are and if they are comparable. Also, Trump isn’t deporting less because he is pro immigration. He is deporting less because of skill issues on his part. If he could he would deport 5 times as many people as Biden. Again, I am not saying the Dems are saints here.
But lets say I give you that. Biden is worse on immigration. Do you have articles on Biden doing unitary executive theory? Do you have articles on Biden deporting innocent US citizens? How about articles about how Bidens head of health and human services is targeting all autistic people? Biden arresting judges? The bad stuff the Democrats do the Republican party also does and more. We are very close to losing habeas corpus in the US.
The shift to fascism has rapidly accelerated in the US since the republicans have taken office and I just don’t see that same acceleration with the Dems. I am trying to understand how you could seriously compare the two parties and say they are equivalent, but I don’t see it. Right now, the only thing that makes sense to me is that you are a Republican and you want people to not vote in elections because that benefits Republicans. You don’t seem like that kind of person though, so, can you help me understand?
You need to find a local socialist group to get involved with. Hopefully that will help deprogram you of the Democrat propaganda you’ve absorbed.
If you get more involved, you’ll quickly realize that the Democrats are more active villains than you currently realize, and are the primary party we’re having to battle.
you’ll quickly realize that the Democrats are more active villains than you currently realize, and are the primary party we’re having to battle.
Wow you guys haven’t changed at all since 1917. This is a remarkable consistency for 108 years. Lenin and Stalin also saw their primary enemies as the other leftwing parties instead of the conservatives. They killed and/or imprisoned literally ever member of Russia’s other 2 socialist parties, the Menshiviks and the Socialist Revolutionary Party.
Already in the social labor party, but the restrictions of a 527 organization seem so… broken? The political party can’t endorse any specifc candidates, pay for campaign expenses, etc. You’d need a PAC for that.
After all of those hurdles, the idea of a third party being viable across all states seem very far away, and with FPTP systems it is very unlikely that it would be able to do anything before people are put in camps for being LGBTQ+ or calling out fascists for what they are.
Considering the Democrats are moving even further to the right, I don’t understand your logic in thinking that continuing to vote for Democrats will solve any of those problems. As we’ve already seen, voting for Democrats isn’t even harm reduction. Biden armed a genocide, and deported 250% more people than Trump.
Let me ask you this. How many significant “third parties” have gotten a significant number of votes in elections, in the 250 years that this country has been sovereign?
There was Roosevelt in 1912 with the progressive party that got most of his voters after splitting from republicans (supported largely by the north at the time). The [white supremacist] American Independent party in 1968 split off from the democrat party (at that time, supported largely by the south) The Independent party in 1992 split off from the republican party, and even though they got nearly a fifth of the popular vote, they didn’t get any electoral votes.
Historically, a third party has only gotten significant traction by infiltrating and then splitting off from a major party. Why would we not want to fracture this broken democrat party into something useful? We have the opportunity, and I firmly believe that the youth (once they start voting and getting on their feet enough to stand in this sea of shit that we find ourselves in) will make that move to split and reform the party to be something better.
I can understand not wanting to vote for someone who endorses some of the things you oppose (and some things that you might even be okay with!), but I do not understand still withholding that vote when the other option is someone whose actions repeatedly endorse ALL the things you oppose, but orders of magnitude worse.
Neoliberals are neither progressive nor leftist. They are protectors of right-wing ur-fascist policy. It’s past time we accept that the DNC is owned and operated by self-serving, rich neoliberal scum and start finding actual progressive, leftist alternatives.
I don’t disagree with anything there. I still don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to slow fascism down as much as possible. One day of voting seems like a pretty good deal for the outcome.
Why wouldn’t a progressive want to vote blue though? Of the two most likely candidates, they are the least fascist.
Unless you’re going the accelerationist route, it makes sense to Vote blue.
The DNC won’t improve things because their goal is to maintain the status quo
With these actions they prove their goal is stagnation, not progress.
Why the fuck would you think that the DNC has the power to “improve things”? The DNC is no different from the RNC. Neither of them have any power at all over any branch of government. The 2 Dem organizations with 100% of the actual power to make laws are the HDC and the SDC.
I agree, but they are less fascist than the Republicans. So why not vote for them?
Because they have proven they aren’t interested in meaningfully improving things…
I want an option besides collapse and slow collapse lol
I agree. We need time to build a leftist party or to fundamentally change the Democratic party. I’m not opposed to completely rewiring the Republican party if it’s a faster option.
We can get more time by voting for the least fascist option. That way we won’t be sent off El Salvador while we’re trying to fix things.
There have been such attempts over the previous 120 years. They were all failures because of structural reasons.
Yes that would be fantastic and definitely needs to happen. And it will happen sooner or later. The problem is that we need much more “sooner” and much less “later”. We only have so many years to live.
I think the brands are too toxic at this point.
Like 70% of people say they want more third parties that actually care about the things they do and don’t like the Duopoly.
Yeah, I agree. I think first past the post has not been good. That’s what forces us into this two-party system.
I would vote for a third party if it became more popular than the Democrats or the Republicans, and it was progressive/ leftist.
The problem is getting it over that hump.
Why should we reward democrats for taking our votes and betraying us?
That’s your problem, thinking you’re rewarding Democrats somehow by voting for them rather than doing damage mitigation for the country. They’re rich and will be fine regardless of who you vote for - you’re only making things worse for yourself by not voting for the lesser of two evils.
You say “Thats your problem” like you think the DNC can win without these people you talk down to.
It is our problem. You and me and everybody. Because we are the primary losers whenever the GOP wins elections. Not well to do politicians. They are going to be fine either way.
They can’t. But the fascists sure did thanks to their help.
How? We’ve voted blue no matter who for decades and look where it got us.
Maybe democrats should do something to earn our votes.
30 million more people with health insurance? Raising taxes on billionaires instead of cutting them?
Nobody who voted for Harris were trying to do a f*cking personal favor for her. We were all trying to do ourselves and the country a favor. Some other person has to earn your right to permit you to do yourself a personal favor? The rest of us are simply claiming that right for ourselves because we would be fools not to.
And if they don’t, who will be the ones suffering for it? It won’t be them.
Oh, okay, you win. Voting blue no matter who is obviously the path to a progressive utopia.
It’s more likely to be than letting fascists win, although a lot of work would have to be done primarying the corpos and getting progressives in there. That’s not even a possibility when the GOP has power.
You don’t get it. YOU’RE letting the fascists win.
Progressive policies are broadly popular. Corporate democrats are less popular than the least popular president in American history.
No, voting for not-facists isn’t letting the fascists win. People voting for fascists and refusing to vote against them are. They may be doing it because the not-fascists suck, but the result is the same.
People like you are the reason that we have a authoritarian fascist in power right now.
Well done. Fucking dipshit.
By not fighting the fascists they allow them to run rampant. This is accelerationism.
It doesn’t matter if the party doesn’t change. We can keep sleepwalking into it or crash into it, the result will be the same. We must change the Democratic party to avoid disaster.
I agree, but why not disempower the fascist as much as possible while rebuilding the Democratic party?
The thing about voting for the “least fascist” is you’re still voting for a fascist.
The energy is better spent preparing to remove the fascists. Get a gun, get organized with your community, build up shared resources, and prepare for the shoe to drop.
Good thing I’m voting for a democrat and not a fascist then.
The thing about supporting a Communist overthrow of democracy is that you’re still supporting a Fascist overthrow of democracy with the same end result.
But like, you should still vote while you’re doing all that
For a capitalist party? Absolutely not. You’re giving them consent to govern on your behalf, and reinforcing their legitimacy.
I am glad you agree that consent is important. The Communists ruled Russia for 74 years without anybody’s consent, so I will assume you understand as all of us do that they are every bit as bad as their Fascist allies.
It grants you slower fascism rather than fast fascism.
One day of voting for Democrats seems like it could prevent a lot of bad from happening. It’s a pretty good bang for your buck in terms of time spent organizing.
As far as consent and legitimacy goes, that’s more of a media thing, not a voting thing.
No, that’s a reflection of the privilege you enjoy personally under Democrats. There are many, many people who have suffered and died under the fascism of Democrats as well.
Once you’re advocating for voting for a genocidal party as ‘harm reduction’, it’s very clearly just an argument of maintaining personal privilege.
Also, the harm reduction argument is made up. Once you compare their actual policies, and not what they campaign on, you’ll see the difference between the two parties is nonexistent. Which is as expected from two parties accepting money from the same oligarchs.
Oh hey I’m glad you brought up “genocide”. You remind me very much of Trump and his whoppers. But this gives us an opportunity to review Lenin and Stalin’s genocide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0967067X97000111
https://www.chinafile.com/library/nyrb-china-archive/who-killed-more-hitler-stalin-or-mao
https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2010/09/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310
https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/ezpp8k/how_many_people_did_stalin_actually_kill/
https://allthatsinteresting.com/how-many-people-did-stalin-kill
https://www.britannica.com/place/Soviet-Union/The-U-S-S-R-from-the-death-of-Lenin-to-the-death-of-Stalin
I agree they both are fed by the same oligarchs. And I agree that the fascism of the Democrats have killed people.
But you can’t say the difference is non-existent. Was Biden or Kamala going to start shipping citizens over El Salvador? I think not and arguing that the two parties are the same is very silly.
Also thanks to first pass the post not voting for Democrats is giving more power to Republicans. Whose fascism will kill way more than the Democratic fascism.
I’m begging you to question what you’ve been led to believe are fundamental truths.
https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20200109/110349/HHRG-116-GO00-20200109-SD007.pdf
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36e41dx425o.amp
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-set-broaden-arrests-deportation-routes-expand-immigration-crackdown-2025-02-21/
https://www.aclu.org/news/smart-justice/how-can-3-year-old-represent-himself-court
So your argument is Biden deported more people. Ok, I don’t disagree with those articles. Now that it is May, I wonder what the numbers are and if they are comparable. Also, Trump isn’t deporting less because he is pro immigration. He is deporting less because of skill issues on his part. If he could he would deport 5 times as many people as Biden. Again, I am not saying the Dems are saints here.
But lets say I give you that. Biden is worse on immigration. Do you have articles on Biden doing unitary executive theory? Do you have articles on Biden deporting innocent US citizens? How about articles about how Bidens head of health and human services is targeting all autistic people? Biden arresting judges? The bad stuff the Democrats do the Republican party also does and more. We are very close to losing habeas corpus in the US.
The shift to fascism has rapidly accelerated in the US since the republicans have taken office and I just don’t see that same acceleration with the Dems. I am trying to understand how you could seriously compare the two parties and say they are equivalent, but I don’t see it. Right now, the only thing that makes sense to me is that you are a Republican and you want people to not vote in elections because that benefits Republicans. You don’t seem like that kind of person though, so, can you help me understand?
deleted by creator
You need to find a local socialist group to get involved with. Hopefully that will help deprogram you of the Democrat propaganda you’ve absorbed.
If you get more involved, you’ll quickly realize that the Democrats are more active villains than you currently realize, and are the primary party we’re having to battle.
Wow you guys haven’t changed at all since 1917. This is a remarkable consistency for 108 years. Lenin and Stalin also saw their primary enemies as the other leftwing parties instead of the conservatives. They killed and/or imprisoned literally ever member of Russia’s other 2 socialist parties, the Menshiviks and the Socialist Revolutionary Party.
Already in the social labor party, but the restrictions of a 527 organization seem so… broken? The political party can’t endorse any specifc candidates, pay for campaign expenses, etc. You’d need a PAC for that.
After all of those hurdles, the idea of a third party being viable across all states seem very far away, and with FPTP systems it is very unlikely that it would be able to do anything before people are put in camps for being LGBTQ+ or calling out fascists for what they are.
Considering the Democrats are moving even further to the right, I don’t understand your logic in thinking that continuing to vote for Democrats will solve any of those problems. As we’ve already seen, voting for Democrats isn’t even harm reduction. Biden armed a genocide, and deported 250% more people than Trump.
That didn’t address any of my concerns, but okay…
Let me ask you this. How many significant “third parties” have gotten a significant number of votes in elections, in the 250 years that this country has been sovereign?
There was Roosevelt in 1912 with the progressive party that got most of his voters after splitting from republicans (supported largely by the north at the time). The [white supremacist] American Independent party in 1968 split off from the democrat party (at that time, supported largely by the south) The Independent party in 1992 split off from the republican party, and even though they got nearly a fifth of the popular vote, they didn’t get any electoral votes.
Historically, a third party has only gotten significant traction by infiltrating and then splitting off from a major party. Why would we not want to fracture this broken democrat party into something useful? We have the opportunity, and I firmly believe that the youth (once they start voting and getting on their feet enough to stand in this sea of shit that we find ourselves in) will make that move to split and reform the party to be something better.
I can understand not wanting to vote for someone who endorses some of the things you oppose (and some things that you might even be okay with!), but I do not understand still withholding that vote when the other option is someone whose actions repeatedly endorse ALL the things you oppose, but orders of magnitude worse.
Neoliberals are neither progressive nor leftist. They are protectors of right-wing ur-fascist policy. It’s past time we accept that the DNC is owned and operated by self-serving, rich neoliberal scum and start finding actual progressive, leftist alternatives.
I don’t disagree with anything there. I still don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to slow fascism down as much as possible. One day of voting seems like a pretty good deal for the outcome.
You can both organize and vote.