There’s like 15 people in this country who could be looking for work and aren’t. How does inflicting revenge pain on them raise any sort of money for the rest of us?
They’re either lying, or utterly incompetent when it comes to understanding who’s in the welfare system.
We’ve come full circle on this one. This is pretty much exactly the same shit they said 13 years ago when we all had to ‘tighten our budgets’ whilst the richest people in the UK got significantly richer at our expense.
15 people? Are you that sheltered from reality? Try a million.
Edit: What kind of middle class bubble is Lemmy living in? Plenty of people are abusing the system, just because you haven’t seen them from your university campuses or your cottage in Chipping Norton doesn’t make them non existent.
Mate I work a minimum wage warehouse job and my partner works part time in a supermarket. We rent a 2 bed terrace house that hasn’t had any work done to it in 20 years and can barely afford to keep the lights on. Middle class I ain’t.
Well stop acting as though it’s an insignificant number of people who abuse the system. I’m not talking about immigrants either. There are millions who could be in work but aren’t.
But in the grand scheme of things it’s a relatively small percentage of people. And If they were serious about saving the tax payers money they wouldn’t have written off a few billion in COVID loans a few years back.
They couldn’t give two shits if some bloke is down the job center claiming a few hundred quid to sit on his arse, and tbh neither should we. There’s significantly bigger fish to fry.
It’s not just some bloke is it? It’s an entire demographic. Our schools are failing people from the very start and they aren’t interested in social mobility or education.
We spent £230bn on welfare last year alone. Granted a percentage of that chunk is fixed, but to act as though there is no headroom and people aren’t gaming the system ever is just insanity.
Yes the rich need taxing, but this isn’t a mutually exclusive kind of situation. We shouldn’t just tax the rich and spend stupidly elsewhere.
When did I say people aren’t playing the system? I said it’s massively overestimated given the numbers of people that aren’t playing the system.
And welfare spending also includes Pensions. It’s also by far and away the largest portion of that pie. Maybe we could take the state pension away from people who already have a nice cushty private pension and distribute that percentage back to people who aren’t in a position to retire at all?
For the record, it seems like ~10 million people aren’t working who are of working age in the UK. If it’s millions, it would mean that at least 1 in 5 people not working abuses the system. Do you really think it’s that high?
The OP is clearly using hyperbole. But only 1% of the welfare bill goes on unemployment benefits, so even if absolutely everyone on unemployment benefits is cheating and you cut them off, you don’t save much. In reality the majority of people on unemployment benefits are not cheating the system - a system that already sanctions the unemployed for not actively seeking work.
There is more to it than the budget. It’s a cultural thing. People become comfortable being on benefits. And I’m not just talking job seekers, I’m talking about the long term “sick” many of whom I personally believe are exaggerating their symptoms.
I don’t think just giving people a bit of cash every week that they can blow on drugs or booze is necessarily the best use of resources, nor is it even beginning to scratch the surface of the wider social issues.
You’d be surprised to find out that it’s way more than 15 people. I’ve personally known at least a dozen who immigrated to the UK just because of the welfare system and they’d abuse it by getting paid for sitting on their ass all day.
I was an audiotypist for benefit fraud interviews for many years. My partner at the time worked in the BDC. I’m also a first generation immigrant. What I’m trying to say is that you absolutely are talking out your arse.
I can assure you that even if anyone immigrates to the UK, the road between stepping foot in the country and being able to claim benefits is long and complex.
A lot of EU migrants have easy access to benefits. And people from Eastern Europe know how to live frugally (source: I’m one of them). Living on benefits in the UK is easy, benefits are bigger than average salaries in many Eastern European countries, housing is also covered, so you’re getting shit loads of money doing absolutely nothing. I know a person from my country, who migrated to the UK, got furloughed during the pandemic, then spent some time on UC while constantly travelling across Europe for fun, now she bought a flat in her home country and moved back. Buying a flat while living on benefits, isn’t that a dream?
The benefits system in the UK is ridiculous. It doesn’t help those in need, but allows a lot of people to defraud the system and milk it for cash.
Tell me ‘fellow migrant’, what length of time must you have been living in the UK, on what terms of immigration, and what stipulations must be fulfilled before a claim can be made (that will be processed and NOT automatically declined) by the Department for Work and Pensions.
If someone was furloughed, then they weren’t on UC. Also, I had to travel back to my home country during the pandemic because my mother died from covid and I’m an only child. I had been claiming UC at the time and my benefits were stopped while I was there because I left the country for more than 30 days.
The more you carry on with this lie, the more evident it is that you have zero idea what you’re talking about.
I am completely open to debate your claims factually. However, it looks like the facts don’t support your little narrative. So it’s probably a good idea for you to throw in the towel now.
I mean I’ll happily have a debate about the merits of UBI in a world where we’re rushing towards mass unemployment, but that’s aside it’s a very very small segment of people on welfare who are “playing the system”.
It’s bullshit rhetoric designed to get people shouting down at the poorest in our society whilst the richest get away with stealing from us all.
UBI changes the game too though as you don’t lose if if you are working. Its always there so you don’t have to navigate a beurocratic process instead of being able to look for work.
It’s a very small segment, if you assume everybody that is labelled as “sick” are actually unable to work in any way (doubtful). But even without that it’s close to a million
Plenty would happily work “a bit” or “in some way”, but there’s not a lot in the system to support assisted/flexible/partial working etc.
If you have injuries, ailments, illnesses, they’re still asking you to work 40 hours or go fully on sick, rather than supporting a “however many hours you can manage” and a small topup to maintain a basic standard of living.
These used to be part of the system, in the earlier part of the “working tax credits” era.
How many of those who claim to be happy to work also happen to be incredibly picky about the work they would choose to do and when it comes to it in reality are actually happier cashing in benefits?
I’m sorry to hear that - and I don’t doubt they exist, but i don’t think it’s in the numbers that sometimes get portrayed, more in “statistically irrelevant” sort of numbers - though it will depend vastly on where you live in the country. I’m sure it’s a visible problem in some specific areas or communities.
However, I also think people (and the job centre) should be picky about the work people are applying for, at least for a while. This was also formerly part of the system, where they pretty much gave you a year of looking for relevant work, before enforcing other options.
When someone better qualified (like when a large employer in an area suddenly closes) is forced to do an entry level job, especially through one of those “supporting you back to work” scams, where you work 40 hours in exchange for your dole & landlord benefit (i.e. working for ~£3 an hour) - you’re blocking all the entry level work from people who can currently only apply to it.
Personally, I’d rather let the handful of gleeful scroungers skip joyously down the road with their £70 in hand and do nothing, than punish millions of genuinely struggling people “just in case”.
It’s a massively visible problem. The fact you don’t see it leads me to believe you had a rather comfortable upbringing.
I’m not saying punish the scroungers, but there are a lot of champagne socialists out there who don’t see the genuine problems out there from their village bubbles. There are millions out there who are completely unincentivised to better themselves in any way whatsoever. Many who stretch the definition of sick, and many who are just apathetic about society in general.
This is why the left struggles with courting the genuine working class, because they don’t understand their legitimate grievances or even worse just brush away glaring social problems because of their idealistic view of people on benefits.
By the way, I’m absolutely not advocating punising those who need it.
Unless anything magical has happened in the last few years, I still live in one of the “worst” inner city places to be in the UK for income, employment, crime and reputation etc (i.e. you can still buy a 3 bed terrace on my street for less than £100k) - but, yes, I’m probably only ten minutes walk away from a “nice bit”, and the “worst bit” is over a mile away, in a direction I generally don’t need to go in - but it’s definitely no leafy village :)
Regardless, I do know what you mean - I think I just look at it more optimistically (or naively) and assume the best in everyone.
I used to do work with community groups round here (and in the “worst bit”) so I was constantly meeting and working with desperate people trying their best, but being shat on by the world/benefits system - so obviously my view is skewed a bit in favour of those who’d turn up to such things - and I’m not going to meet any of those that truly don’t care.
I’ll accept my numbers are likely a bit off and biased, but I still feel The “scrounger” number is tiny compared to the genuinely struggling.
The difference between my time on the dole (~18 years ago) and my partner’s time on the dole (~7 years ago) is astonishing. I was respected and supported to set up my own business. She wanted to do the same but was treated like a criminal.
There’s like 15 people in this country who could be looking for work and aren’t. How does inflicting revenge pain on them raise any sort of money for the rest of us?
They’re either lying, or utterly incompetent when it comes to understanding who’s in the welfare system.
Or both I guess.
deleted by creator
They understand what their voters want to hear: it’s not us causing the problem in this country, it’s the lazy benefit cheats
We’ve come full circle on this one. This is pretty much exactly the same shit they said 13 years ago when we all had to ‘tighten our budgets’ whilst the richest people in the UK got significantly richer at our expense.
It’s entirely possible for more than one thing to be causing unnecessary fiscal problems.
Clearly the poors should be pulling themselves up by their stiff upper lip or something like that
A bloody lot more than that.
15 people? Are you that sheltered from reality? Try a million.
Edit: What kind of middle class bubble is Lemmy living in? Plenty of people are abusing the system, just because you haven’t seen them from your university campuses or your cottage in Chipping Norton doesn’t make them non existent.
Mate I work a minimum wage warehouse job and my partner works part time in a supermarket. We rent a 2 bed terrace house that hasn’t had any work done to it in 20 years and can barely afford to keep the lights on. Middle class I ain’t.
Well stop acting as though it’s an insignificant number of people who abuse the system. I’m not talking about immigrants either. There are millions who could be in work but aren’t.
But in the grand scheme of things it’s a relatively small percentage of people. And If they were serious about saving the tax payers money they wouldn’t have written off a few billion in COVID loans a few years back.
They couldn’t give two shits if some bloke is down the job center claiming a few hundred quid to sit on his arse, and tbh neither should we. There’s significantly bigger fish to fry.
It’s not just some bloke is it? It’s an entire demographic. Our schools are failing people from the very start and they aren’t interested in social mobility or education.
We spent £230bn on welfare last year alone. Granted a percentage of that chunk is fixed, but to act as though there is no headroom and people aren’t gaming the system ever is just insanity.
Yes the rich need taxing, but this isn’t a mutually exclusive kind of situation. We shouldn’t just tax the rich and spend stupidly elsewhere.
When did I say people aren’t playing the system? I said it’s massively overestimated given the numbers of people that aren’t playing the system.
And welfare spending also includes Pensions. It’s also by far and away the largest portion of that pie. Maybe we could take the state pension away from people who already have a nice cushty private pension and distribute that percentage back to people who aren’t in a position to retire at all?
When you said like 15 people are abusing the system. There are millions out there and you know it.
Yes scrap the triple lock as well, it’s a load of bollocks too.
I don’t know it. Can you show any kind of proof?
For the record, it seems like ~10 million people aren’t working who are of working age in the UK. If it’s millions, it would mean that at least 1 in 5 people not working abuses the system. Do you really think it’s that high?
The OP is clearly using hyperbole. But only 1% of the welfare bill goes on unemployment benefits, so even if absolutely everyone on unemployment benefits is cheating and you cut them off, you don’t save much. In reality the majority of people on unemployment benefits are not cheating the system - a system that already sanctions the unemployed for not actively seeking work.
There is more to it than the budget. It’s a cultural thing. People become comfortable being on benefits. And I’m not just talking job seekers, I’m talking about the long term “sick” many of whom I personally believe are exaggerating their symptoms.
I don’t think just giving people a bit of cash every week that they can blow on drugs or booze is necessarily the best use of resources, nor is it even beginning to scratch the surface of the wider social issues.
Well good thing you know what your talking about. Otherwise I’d be inclined think you were a enormous twat.
You’d be surprised to find out that it’s way more than 15 people. I’ve personally known at least a dozen who immigrated to the UK just because of the welfare system and they’d abuse it by getting paid for sitting on their ass all day.
You absolutely do not.
I was an audiotypist for benefit fraud interviews for many years. My partner at the time worked in the BDC. I’m also a first generation immigrant. What I’m trying to say is that you absolutely are talking out your arse.
I can assure you that even if anyone immigrates to the UK, the road between stepping foot in the country and being able to claim benefits is long and complex.
Why would you even lie?
No, this is the Internet, no one would lie!
Are you even a DJ!?
Technically, not currently. But I have been.
OR HAVE I‽‽‽
Good use of the interrobang.
I don’t fuck about when it comes to the interrobang.
Is this an equilavant of stolen valour but for DJs?
In the same way that a former military Major will insist on being known by his rank, I will only answer to DJ Darren.
A lot of EU migrants have easy access to benefits. And people from Eastern Europe know how to live frugally (source: I’m one of them). Living on benefits in the UK is easy, benefits are bigger than average salaries in many Eastern European countries, housing is also covered, so you’re getting shit loads of money doing absolutely nothing. I know a person from my country, who migrated to the UK, got furloughed during the pandemic, then spent some time on UC while constantly travelling across Europe for fun, now she bought a flat in her home country and moved back. Buying a flat while living on benefits, isn’t that a dream?
The benefits system in the UK is ridiculous. It doesn’t help those in need, but allows a lot of people to defraud the system and milk it for cash.
Truly amazing. You’re doubling down.
Tell me ‘fellow migrant’, what length of time must you have been living in the UK, on what terms of immigration, and what stipulations must be fulfilled before a claim can be made (that will be processed and NOT automatically declined) by the Department for Work and Pensions.
If someone was furloughed, then they weren’t on UC. Also, I had to travel back to my home country during the pandemic because my mother died from covid and I’m an only child. I had been claiming UC at the time and my benefits were stopped while I was there because I left the country for more than 30 days.
The more you carry on with this lie, the more evident it is that you have zero idea what you’re talking about.
The only one lying here is you, mate. You didn’t even read my comment properly, there’s nothing to discuss here.
A stupendous attempt to save face.
I am completely open to debate your claims factually. However, it looks like the facts don’t support your little narrative. So it’s probably a good idea for you to throw in the towel now.
You’re deluded.
<3 An enjoyable evening to you also.
I mean I’ll happily have a debate about the merits of UBI in a world where we’re rushing towards mass unemployment, but that’s aside it’s a very very small segment of people on welfare who are “playing the system”.
It’s bullshit rhetoric designed to get people shouting down at the poorest in our society whilst the richest get away with stealing from us all.
UBI changes the game too though as you don’t lose if if you are working. Its always there so you don’t have to navigate a beurocratic process instead of being able to look for work.
It’s a very small segment, if you assume everybody that is labelled as “sick” are actually unable to work in any way (doubtful). But even without that it’s close to a million
Plenty would happily work “a bit” or “in some way”, but there’s not a lot in the system to support assisted/flexible/partial working etc.
If you have injuries, ailments, illnesses, they’re still asking you to work 40 hours or go fully on sick, rather than supporting a “however many hours you can manage” and a small topup to maintain a basic standard of living.
These used to be part of the system, in the earlier part of the “working tax credits” era.
How many of those who claim to be happy to work also happen to be incredibly picky about the work they would choose to do and when it comes to it in reality are actually happier cashing in benefits?
I know my father is exactly that.
I’m sorry to hear that - and I don’t doubt they exist, but i don’t think it’s in the numbers that sometimes get portrayed, more in “statistically irrelevant” sort of numbers - though it will depend vastly on where you live in the country. I’m sure it’s a visible problem in some specific areas or communities.
However, I also think people (and the job centre) should be picky about the work people are applying for, at least for a while. This was also formerly part of the system, where they pretty much gave you a year of looking for relevant work, before enforcing other options.
When someone better qualified (like when a large employer in an area suddenly closes) is forced to do an entry level job, especially through one of those “supporting you back to work” scams, where you work 40 hours in exchange for your dole & landlord benefit (i.e. working for ~£3 an hour) - you’re blocking all the entry level work from people who can currently only apply to it.
Personally, I’d rather let the handful of gleeful scroungers skip joyously down the road with their £70 in hand and do nothing, than punish millions of genuinely struggling people “just in case”.
It’s a massively visible problem. The fact you don’t see it leads me to believe you had a rather comfortable upbringing.
I’m not saying punish the scroungers, but there are a lot of champagne socialists out there who don’t see the genuine problems out there from their village bubbles. There are millions out there who are completely unincentivised to better themselves in any way whatsoever. Many who stretch the definition of sick, and many who are just apathetic about society in general.
This is why the left struggles with courting the genuine working class, because they don’t understand their legitimate grievances or even worse just brush away glaring social problems because of their idealistic view of people on benefits.
By the way, I’m absolutely not advocating punising those who need it.
Unless anything magical has happened in the last few years, I still live in one of the “worst” inner city places to be in the UK for income, employment, crime and reputation etc (i.e. you can still buy a 3 bed terrace on my street for less than £100k) - but, yes, I’m probably only ten minutes walk away from a “nice bit”, and the “worst bit” is over a mile away, in a direction I generally don’t need to go in - but it’s definitely no leafy village :)
Regardless, I do know what you mean - I think I just look at it more optimistically (or naively) and assume the best in everyone.
I used to do work with community groups round here (and in the “worst bit”) so I was constantly meeting and working with desperate people trying their best, but being shat on by the world/benefits system - so obviously my view is skewed a bit in favour of those who’d turn up to such things - and I’m not going to meet any of those that truly don’t care.
I’ll accept my numbers are likely a bit off and biased, but I still feel The “scrounger” number is tiny compared to the genuinely struggling.
The difference between my time on the dole (~18 years ago) and my partner’s time on the dole (~7 years ago) is astonishing. I was respected and supported to set up my own business. She wanted to do the same but was treated like a criminal.
You’ve brought your father up a couple of times in this thread. It feels like you’re projecting a bit.
I get having a shit dad, but not everyone is the same
This may come as a shock…but the 15 wasn’t meant to be taken literally.
I know right.