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I think there’s a simpler, more personal way to make this point. Here’s a few thought experiments:
Imagine you work for a company that lays you off, even while doing enough stock buybacks and executive bonuses such that they could’ve paid your salary for 1000 years. After you get laid off, imagine what would happen if you just ignored them and continued doing your work.
Or, your landlord doesn’t renew your lease because they think you’re ugly and they don’t want ugly people living in their building. Imagine what happens if you just stay, even if you keep sending the landlord their monthly rent on time.
Both of these situations end with armed, taxpayer-funded agents physically removing you from the premises by any means necessary; it is only the omnipresent threat of state violence that keeps capitalist control over their private property. We don’t see the violence because we’ve been trained from an early age not just to accept it, but to not even see it.
Not playing devils advocate by choice: there are systems in place (at least in more democratic countries) that force the employer and the landlord to keep you if you havent done anything wrong.
At will employment is an american joke.
Still, paying more for the shareholders and CEOs than the actual work your water, food and transportation needs is insane.
The idea that I can buy my way around laws and others rights is disgusting to the core.
Very true, although I can’t think of a better solution than having the state monopolize violence and enforce things like personal property etc and that’s not necessarily anything specific to capitalism either.
Some very smart and imaginative anarchist philosophers have been working on exactly that for a very long time, from Mikhail Bakunin 200 years ago to more modern writers like Noam Chomsky or David Graeber. I think their work is worthwhile.
I haven’t found Chomskys work to be convincing… it’s always so… extra…
I don’t think it’s extra. Quite the opposite. If anything, it could use a little extra, because it’s extremely dry and academic.
I think we used the slang version of extra differently is all.
I can’t think of a better solution than having the state monopolize violence and enforce things
I can’t think of a worse one.
Sorry, it’s the internet so I can’t tell if you’re kidding or not (I’m hoping hyperbole).
Are you genuinely saying you think everyone using violence at their own discretion for example is better?
Individual descretion occurs within a context of established norms and rules, which would be very different under a society in which everyone protects one another, rather than one in which such responsibility has been forfeit to a power that controls the population.
A society of the prior kind would be safer, by not being held hostage, and by not being disempowered to control itself.
Individual descretion occurs within a context of established norms and rules, which would be very different under a society in which everyone protects one another
It’s called a gang. That’s just gangs. Or tribes. Not a thing that scales up too well. Also not known for its safety.
by not being held hostage
You could literally be held hostage, unless your gang (hope you belong to a tough one) does something about it.
We aren’t disempowered, we vote and elect representatives. We give input that takes those norms and rules and puts them into laws to eliminate that individual discretion that is most often faulty (people have emotions after all, so don’t behave fairly when it’s personal).
Basically all the safest places in the world have violence monopolized by the state to enforce laws. All the most dangerous are where that isn’t the case (gangs, warlords, cartels, corruption) with few exceptions.
A gang is a criminal organization. Its relation to surrounding society is antagonistic, and it is broadly indifferent to the harmful effects it causes to anyone outside. Gangs often enrich themselves by theft supported by violence. They generally do not produce.
A group whose members live nearby to one another and who keep each other safe is a community. Members of a community generally participate in production, as the shared source of wealth and sustenance.
A tribe is a political structure often constituted as a loose affiliation of bands. A band is a kind of community. Bands are usually relatively isolated socially and geographically from other communities.
Many other communities, as often found in modern societies, are highly integrated with other communities, and maintain favorable relationships with them, seeking a minimization of violence, and fostering shared peace and prosperity through production and trade.
Voting is not empowering.
Voting is at best a choice of whom to empower. Those who compete against one another for the votes of the public generally have more in common with each other than with the public. Most rules change very little regardless of who is elected, and most rules carry the broader effect of protecting the power of those already empowered.
Broadly, voting generally maintains and protects, not challenges, the status quo and the disempowerment of the public.
For the public to become empowered, it would need to gain some power relative to those for whom it votes.
States perpetrate violence on massive scales. They function to protect themselves, not to protect the public. For almost the entirety of human existence, people have protected each other without states.
The idea that the state, even as a principle, should protect the public, is quite recent, even relative to the duration since states have emerged, and the practical reality is quite different from the principle.
When the interests of the public come into conflict with the interests of the state, then the state inflicts violence against the public.
When the capacity of the state becomes strained, to inflict violence against the public, then the state simply exercises its power to augment its capacity to inflict violence.
The argument presented here is based on complete ignorance of the history of the human race.
Reason #1
The concept of property ownership is not a product of capitalism. This idea is literally as old as the oldest known civilization to keep written records, Mesopotamia.
Concern with property, its preservation, and its use shaped not only the Mesopotamian legal tradition but also economic and social practice, notably the ability to sell and to buy land and to transfer property through marriage and inheritance.
In Mesopotamian culture, property was owned by the state, by the temple, and by private families. Records show a distinction between movable property (material goods) and immovable property (land), and the selling, trading, repossessing, inheriting and transfer of all types of property.
Here is an example of a cuneiform tablet recording an agreement about the division of property.
There is even an equivalent of eminent domain:
When Hammurabi asked, “When is a permanent property ever taken away?” he was referring to the established customary legal principle that land was the permanent property of a family.
Hammurabi was not a capitalist. Babylon was not a capitalist nation.
Capitalism did not “invent legal privileges around property”.
Reason #2
Conquest of territory happened long before capitalism ever existed. Colonialism was hardly a new concept.
Genghis Khan was not a capitalist. Alexander the Great was not a capitalist. Julius Caesar was not a capitalist. Napoleon Bonaparte was not a capitalist.
If you require citations for this part of my argument, I suggest you find a basic text on world history at your local library.
Conclusion
I’m not going to address the other “reasons” as they are faulty conclusions drawn from the previously addressed faulty premises.
I am not arguing that these things are right and good. I am arguing that linking them specifically to capitalism represents a desperately uneducated understanding of human society and history. This is such a bad take, it reeks of teenage anarchist and “money is the root of all evil” oversimplification.
Where was it suggested that property and conquest are unique to capitalism?
capitalism isn’t owning land. it’s a mode of production I’m which the proletariat are robbed of the product of their labor by the capitalist class using the institution of private property and it’s violent enforcement to extract that wealth.
You seem to be arguing words and not ideas.
You, "Bingo bango! You made a statement that can be technically untrue, therefore you are entirely incorrect!"Debunking someone’s point first requires engaging with it and you never even came close. So what about Mesopotamia? Let’s take your word on that, does it change the core point? Nope.
You, "Shazam! People were stabbing before capitalism, therefore when someone gets stabbed under capitalism, it's fine! Shazam!"Then you go on to say that because a certain type of violence happened before capitalism, it’s cool that it exists.
You, "Kersplat! You are icky, and I will stop there, the rest of your post is probably stupid anyway!"Do you have brain damage my dude?
As I understand it, the comic states :
1. Create penalties for not being a property/capital-owner.
2. Acquire property/capital through violence
3. With violently acquired capital-backing, use step #1 to exert control
4. Population attacks itself to avoid rule #1, clawing to attain property/capital
5. The system promotes population infighting, allowing the power-holders to exist un-noticed.Who gives a shit about who invented the baton when you’re getting hit in the face. Well, I expect that you do.
Capitalism is not violent and greedy. Humans are violent and greedy.
Economic systems and sociocultural organization principles are irrelevant and attributing historical human violence to them is fallacious.
you go on to say that because a certain type of violence happened before capitalism, it’s cool that it exists.
No, I specifically did not make any such argument, and made a statement about this in my conclusion because I anticipated that someone would attempt to dismiss what I said by deliberately misinterpreting it and then putting words in my mouth. Did you even read my entire post?
Who gives a shit about who invented the baton when you’re getting hit in the face.
The person that made this cartoon cares, and clearly so do you, as you both want to pin it on a particular source for purely emotional reasons, which is evidenced by the fact that you have made no rational argument based on fact and instead have attempted to dismiss what I wrote while presenting zero evidence for your own point of view.
Debunking someone’s point first requires engaging with it and you never even came close.
The point can’t be engaged with in any useful way if the premise it is based on is faulty.
Capitalism is not violent and greedy. Humans are violent and greedy.
“Guns don’t kill people, humans kill people.” “Capitalism isn’t the problem, humans are.”
Humans are the problem. You’re right. Yet, humans use guns to kill people. Humans use capitalism to be greedy and violent.
If capitalism wasn’t a tool to be used, humans wouldn’t use it. The tool makes the problems when used, so get rid of it.
This is the most persuasive argument in this thread so far… but I’m not sure it’s valid (which is disconcerting because I do think the guns argument is valid but like you said it’s the same it very similar argument)…
I think the part that is different is the scale of scope. For violence, modern firearms immediately peg the board in the red. I’m not sure that capitalism does that.
Capitaliam is an abstract concept, an umbrella term used to encapsulate a somewhat loose grouping of economic behaviors and theories. Humans might use capitalist ideas to justify greedy or violent actions, but they don’t “use capitalism to be greedy and violent”.
The distinction matters because my point is that capitalism is not the source or instrument of violence, but rather a description of and rationalization for human behavior. The violence happens whether or not you conflate the behaviors of the people committing violence with capitalism.
Ultimately I think it would be more accurate to conclude capitalism because violence and greed, not violence and greed because capitalism.
capitalism is, in fact, the instrument. the extraction of wealth from the labor of the preparation is violence
Capitalism is not violent and greedy. Humans are violent and greedy.
Economic systems and sociocultural organization principles are irrelevant and attributing historical human violence to them is fallacious.
I think you have not actually made a case for this claim, and it isn’t obviously true. To me it seems obviously untrue. The organizational structure of human society is very often a driving force for harm, because harm is simply what happens when we fail to solve the nontrivial problem of human cooperation. People with good intentions can be a part of a larger dynamic in which they are overwhelmingly incentivized to be a part of that harm, and may even be absolutely prevented from not being a part of it. Hateful people with bad intentions can be themselves a product of these failures. You can’t reduce this to the moral choices of individuals because individuals may have no knowledge or agency over the systems that shape their world and force their hands.
I think “violence” might not be the best word for this, but it isn’t “fallacious”.
I think changing the wording from “capitalism is violence” (or harm). “To capitalism enables violence” resolves the wiggle room in the argument.
Probably, but personally I think the violence/harm would happen (and does happen) regardless of capitalism/communism/feudalism/Marxism/anarchy/barter economy/etc.
Saying that the violence/harm happens because of capitalism is like saying that rain happens because there are clouds in the sky. There’s concurrence, but neither is the cause of the other, they are both the products of underlying meteorological conditions.
You are attacking a strawman.
Some societies are violent more so than others.
A social system is not simplistically the cause of all violence, and neither is any violence due to causes simplistically detached from the social system in which it occurs.
Violence is latent in capitalism.
It produces massive disparities in wealth and privilege that could not for very long be sustained except by the constant threat of force against those who are deprived, marginalized, and otherwise disadvantaged.
Hard agree.
Comparing property law under hammurabi with property law as it presently exists is absolutely laughably ridiculous and you know it is. You should take your capitalist apologia elsewhere.
I have made no apology for capitalism. If this is what you got from what I wrote, then you have trouble with reading comprehension.
I did not make a comparison between Mesopotamian property law and present property law. My point was that private ownership of property is a function of human society literally as old as recorded history, as well as the idea of legal privileges around property ownership.
Because the cartoon is based on the premise that these ideas come from capitalism, the entire argument is faulty.
I’ll quote from my original post:
I am not arguing that these things are right and good. I am arguing that linking them specifically to capitalism represents a desperately uneducated understanding of human society and history.
It’s a bit disingenuous arguing that capitalism is somehow a new concept, and colonialism isn’t.
I mean the terms capitalism and colonialism are both coined way after the practice of those systems. I think you could argue that capitalism even entered the human world before even currency was a thing.
Colonialism is the same, as you seem to intuit, considering other people and subduing them didn’t need a philosophical framework in order for it to be enacted.
In most civilizations wealth tends to accumulate at the top of the societal pyramid, which is capitalism. The pharaohs and sumerian kings alike are capitalists. They profit of the labour of others.
There’s a reason you’re unwilling to entertain other arguments, because you’re moving the goalposts and are afraid they will fall off the field.
arguing that capitalism is somehow a new concept, and colonialism isn’t.
I am not sure how you reached this conclusion. Yes, capitalism is new in comparison to Mesopotamian culture, and therefore the idea of property ownership. No, it’s not new in comparison to European colonialism.
I think you could argue that capitalism even entered the human world before even currency was a thing.
I have never heard or read any theories that try to make an argument like this. I would be very interested if you had some that you could point me to, but offhand this seems like it would require major stretching of the definition of capitalism in order to make recorded events fit into it. I think it would mostly be an exercise in confirmation bias.
Accumulation of wealth is not inherently capitalism, nor is simply profiting from another’s labor. This definition is so broad that it would make anyone in history who ever acquired anything that they did not previously own into a capitalist.
There’s a reason you’re unwilling to entertain other arguments, because you’re moving the goalposts and are afraid they will fall off the field.
Which other arguments am I unwilling to entertain, and which goalposts am I moving?
My argument is, as from the beginning, that the concept of private ownership of property and legal rights attached to such is not born of capitalism but is in fact as old as recorded history. Because the conclusions in the cartoon depend on this initial faulty idea, the whole thing is nonsense.
The ownership of the means of production and power aren’t inherently new either. As private property is as old as civilization, the appropriation of capital is too.
Be that in the country of the ruler (the state didn’t own marble quarries in Egypt, the pharao did) out abroad (gold mines in what we would call Ethiopia), which could be called colonialist.
To name something colonialist before the Greek policy of colonies in the Mediterranean, is as debatable as calling an ancient economy capitalist.
However, capitalism is very pervasive. Levi Strauss showed in Tristes Tropiques that if there are isolated civilizations without a system of ownership and wealth accumulation, any contact will destroy that state.
I jive with most of what you write… but you have weird things sprinkled throughout…
Like, differentiating between the pharaoh and the state… the pharaoh was the state. I mean, there was more of a state than just the pharaoh… but practically the pharaoh was the state.
It’s like saying that there is a difference between the Russian state and Putin… technically yes, but practically no. Putin is the Russian state. Obviously there is bureaucracy as well, but is just a weird separation.
The big thing imho is that for the prolitariat it is the same. As long as there is an oppressive regime plucking the fruits of the labour, there is exploitation.
Feudalism was the main capitalist system Marx argued against.
That feudalist system is very old and embedded in our history.
Obviously we have different definitions of capitalism… which makes the rest of the discussion difficult.
Fundamentally, serfs in a feudal society did not own the right to their own labor for the portion of their labor assigned to their lord.
Fundamentally, people in modern capitalist societies do own the rights to their own labor.
Practically, the ability to exercise those rights is severely limited (which is what the meme is trying to point out). There are reasonable arguments that the poor in modern capitalism have less freedom than serfs of feudal societies… but that doesn’t make them equivalent.
And, for what it’s worth, Marx wasn’t arguing about 12th century feudalism… that was some 700 years before the form of capitalism that was present in his time.
I think that the main factor is that I am off opinion that capitalist structures are present before the industrial period. But that the exploitation mechanism is different. I thought too have read something of the kind in Marx, but I stand corrected.
However the hooks of the mechanism were always present. I think that to say that capitalism was absent in history, while capital (in form of possession of wealth, production or time) was present is a bit myopic.
Marx identified feudalism as a system distinct from capitalism, separated historically by a transitory system called mercantilism.
Mercantilism may be considered as a kind of proto-capitalism, because it entails the employer-employee relationship, but lacks the systemic consequences of capital accumulation, which depends on continuous growth enabled by the changes in production following the industrial revolution.
Marx identified feudal and capitalist societies both as characterized by “class struggles”, that is, having multiple classes with mutually antagonistic interests, as had “all hitherto existing society”.
I think you could argue that capitalism even entered the human world before even currency was a thing.
I’d love to see your citations and reasoning on this, assuming it doesn’t fall into “capitalism is when anyone owns anything or sells anything”
Because this
In most civilizations wealth tends to accumulate at the top of the societal pyramid, which is capitalism. The pharaohs and sumerian kings alike are capitalists
Is ridiculous.
This is such a weird take… how far removed from reality are you to actually believe that authoritarian feudalism is a form of capitalism?
Wealth accumulation is not capitalism. Capitalism enables wealth accumulation, but the opposite isn’t true in the slightest.
All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
Am I having a stroke or does the first sentence make no sense? Shouldn’t it be more instead of less? If a company always sells for less than the cost to produce, it’ll go out of business rather quickly I’d think. Obviously there are temporary strategies like this that are used to beat competitors, but that’s not what this is talking about.
yeah wtf, the first sentence and nobody picked up on this. We‘re completely fucked
We’re actually “fucked” at everyone’s (my own included) inability to draw inferences from context, and! Often disingenuous character of a lot of people using this unclear manner of speaking. The cartoon isn’t presenting this ambiguous statement ini bad faith, probably just oversight or perhaps that’s not the author’s/translator’s native language.
OK, but qq: Who pumps out septic tanks if there is no coercion involved?
The dude with a passion for septic infrastructure who wants to provide a rewarding service for the community, instead of getting yelled at by customers at the convenience store he works at to make sure he can afford the microwave dinner he’s eating that night.
Pie in the sky scenario/sarcasm aside, criticism of capitalism doesn’t mean pure anarchy. It means looking at what works and what doesn’t work towards making sure people have what they need. Money is much easier to trade people to do a service than trading a goat for 2 sheep, but that doesn’t mean that some landlord deserves 1 of the sheep and half the goat for “allowing” you to raise them under threat of starvation and homelessness.
I love the enthusiasm, but see my reply to the comment above yours. Basically: do you believe that no one should work for anyone else for money? Should every single professional be their own sole proprietorship? Who runs the marketing, bookkeeping, land management, etc for all of these people doing their work? You could have a person who specializes in doing these things professionally for other professionals, but the farther you take that idea, the more you’re just recreating the idea of employment piece by piece. Am I missing something? Honest question.
I love the idea, but I’ve always been a bit confused about the end game goal for this line of thinking. I agree with the idea that landlords are trash, but everybody still needs the ability to purchase food and pleasure goods and such, and as long as the idea of money exists, the need to work for it does also.
Companies can still exist under socialism. They can exist in very similar forms to what we have at the minute. The difference is the ownership.
I suppose the question I’d put back to you is “Do you think there is an intrinsic benefit in someone (who doesn’t do the work) owning a company vs each of the workers having an ownership stake in the business?”.
Why should somebody who has worked somewhere for 10 minutes get an equal slice of the pie as the person who built the company up with all the risk involved?
Firstly, if that is your biggest concern, then we agree far more than we disagree and we’re quibbling over details (which I’m happy to do).
Secondly, who said they do?
It of course depends on what you mean exactly by a"slice of the pie" but there’s lots of ownership models to choose from. Direct ownership is one. An employee owned trust is another. These are to a large extent solved problems - mutuals and co-operatives walk among us now, after all.
Thirdly, you mention the risk of setting up a company. If you’re not rich, why do you have to gamble your dignity and livelihood to participate in innovation? Would the world not be a better place if you could invent and create and innovate and fall back on a basic income if it falls on its face?
Finally, even if we accidentally make things a bit too equal by giving Jim the new starter the same voting rights as Bob the grizzled veteran - is that not better than the system we have at the moment where incomprehensible hoarded wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few?
The fact that mutuals and co-operatives do walk among us but aren’t ubiquitous tells me a lot about how effective they are.
Why should I gamble my livelihood to participate in innovation? Well in a collective society you would be gambling the common labour and stock instead indefinitely which is also non ideal. It acts as a filter so that people are only expending time and resources on ideas that will likely take hold and provide value to society.
It acts as a filter so that people are only expending time and resources on ideas that will likely take hold and provide value to society.
Do you actually believe that this filter is working as intended? Or do you think it ought to work like that?
In a spherical society with no air resistance I can agree with you but it feels like it would be condescending for me to point out how this system that supposedly maximises value to society is in all likelihood going to kill your children’s children.
You constructed a false dichotomy, between one case of labor being organized such workers that are subordinate to an employer, versus the other of everyone working individually.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that I don’t have a problem with capitalism, I have a problem with the consequences of modern-day unregulated capitalism. To me, capitalism is a system of abstraction that allows us to simplify the bartering of old with money. Money is a very useful metaphor for the value of goods and time spent working, but the nature of businesses is to maximize profits, and given the chance, they will do so at the expense of their employees (more so large corporations, but small businesses can be just as guilty). Modern corporate hierarchy is basically just feudalism with extra steps.
People like to work. People like to feel like they’re contributing to their community/society. What people don’t like is not getting paid a fair amount for their labor doing something that doesn’t feel meaningful or fulfilling. Doing a job you don’t like just to put food on the table often falls under this category. It’s “do a job for the sake of doing a job, or die.” Regardless of whatever job you’re thinking of, there’s people out there who will willingly do it, so long as they feel rewarded adequately for their effort. There are people who do actually enjoy being garbagemen or whatever, because they dont mind the work and feel good providing an important service for their community. This is why socialism/socialist systems are so important. Because capitalism is a system that can easily be abused if it isn’t regulated and kept in check, and socialism and capitalism can easily coexist.
There was a study done in Canada about 5-10 years back (which the conservative party stopped and tried to destroy the results of when they got elected into power) where they gave everybody of working age (something like 16 and older) $1,000 a month. What they found was that the vast majority of people continued to work, except for 2 segments of the population: pregnant women and high-school aged kids. This coincided with a general increase in the grades of students and the number of kids who went to college after they graduated. The theory was that because kids from poor families didn’t have to work jobs after school to help their parents pay for bills, they were able to focus more on their education and more could afford to go to college afterwards. And that $1,000 per person ended up back in the economy, stimulating economic growth in all corners of the town.
What we need isn’t to destroy the concept of money and manufacturing. We need to protect workers and provide the support systems that will improve the lives of the general populace, not ensure the growth of the wealthy’s stock portfolios at the expense of everything else.
The weekend was a right given to us by socialists who fought and died for the idea of being able to work a 5 day week instead of working 7 days a week. We don’t need company towns where people use company funny money to buy food from the company store, sleeping in company beds with 2 other people in 8 hour shifts for 100% occupancy in company bunkhouses - like it was in the US around the early 1900s. We need longer weekends.
Money and trade are older than capitalism.
Capitalism emerged from the industrial revolution, as the system of unbounded accumulation of private wealth by a small cohort of society, who contribute no labor, by claiming as profit a share of wealth generated by labor of the rest of society, depriving them from realizing the full value of their own labor.
Based on the above image, I’d say its the guy who sees a demand for septic tank maintenance and is willing to do that work for pay. The first issue is the disparity between the workers and the business owner. but if they’re the same, you don’t have that issue.
Who does the marketing and bookkeeping for that one guy? Are you saying that every single professional should be their own sole proprietorship?
Holy shit you guys are not joking about not knowing cooperative of workers?
Idk, maybe sole proprietor works. Keep the communities relatively, everyone picks up an array of skills, you don’t need marketing to know jimbob and Lisa are the only people skilled w plumbing stuff in the community. And I think it’s pretty common for soleprop to do their own bookkeeping, if it’s really done at all.
How does society build spacecraft, or do high energy physics research in this scenario? Sounds like paradise if you’re willing to stay in an agrarian society, but you have to be comfortable with life expectancy dropping like a rock from its current levels, because there would be no MRI machines, or gene therapy. These things are not the work of individuals, or even small groups working on handshake agreements. Contrary to how it might sound, I’m really not attacking the premise, I just want to make sure everyone understands what their advocating when they imply that this is how society should be.
Yeah, it was really feeling like you were just being contrarian. Which led me to not really try at all to engage with you further. But since it now seems you’re coming at this in good faith….
I’m 100% on the same page with you about advanced technologies and science, though I do wonder if our individual happiness wouldn’t be greater with a bit less technology. The harnessing of tech/science to extract value out of people at the expense of mental health (corporate social media for example) is a cost that is hard to weigh against the advantages of modern health sciences.
It’d be nice if we could find a way to achieve those things without the need for obscene concentration of wealth and this global tragedy of the commons perpetuated by companies and individuals that are so far removed from the impacts of their actions.
There must be a letter way, and I have no clue how to figure it out or how we’d implement it… but the way things are now just… doesn’t feel good.
Why do people want to become doctors, astronauts, invent medical devices, invent new technology, etc
When you give people the choice to actually contribute to society with the things they enjoy doing then they will
And menial tasks such as emptying a septic tank can be automated
Right now the only way people can contribute to society in a way they enjoy is if they have enough money to do so, if not they are forced into doing jobs that they don’t enjoy and drain them
When you give people the chance to contribute to society with the things they enjoy millions of talentless people are going to become video game streamers or rock stars.
There are always some that will “do nothing” if given the freedom to live as they want. Most won’t. What exactly will take the place of a 9 to 5 in a post Capitalist world? No idea. I’m not that smart. Humans do need more than simple pixie dust and altruistic motivations to do more than the most bare bones of things. That said, whatever the next system may be, it need not threaten peoples security (housing, food, and medical care) to be functional.
I can think of a worse future than one where our rapid advances in technology and productivity afford us the ability to create more art and beauty without fear of destitution.
Right now you can contribute to society by doing work that matters which does not always require individual expenses.
For example bar none the single most important job in any developed society is water purification. Working at the water utility is something you can do that benefits everyone and has no cost to yourself.
The second most critical task is waste management which requires no money from the worker either.
Im not being pedantic here. The claim you have to be wealthy to contribute is false
Did you read my comment properly
Some people may enjoy waste management or water purification but not all people do
People also have to lay for the cost of transport, bills, taxes, food, shelter, etc
People want to contribute to society in ways which they enjoy and tasks like water purification and waste management can be largely automated with notifications sent out to people overseeing the automation if there’s an issue
All the nitpicking aside, this is the ‘somebody’s gotta scrub the toilets’ argument right?
The simplest answer to this I can think of is, who scrubs the toilets in your home? It’s you right?
Do you do it because you own the toilet? Not necessarily because people who live in rented accommodation still scrub the toilet. So why? It’s because you have an interest in not living in a place with a filthy toilet. Now suppose you actually had a local community, you’d have an interest in making sure nobody was living with a filthy toilet they couldn’t clean because then they might get sick and you don’t want that because you’re a nice person and you don’t like seeing your friends hurt. So you’d probably set up a communal rota, which is basically what people here in the UK already do because elder care on the NHS doesn’t exist in practice.
The reality is that most people are self-interested and not at all ulturistic about things. They’ll begrudgingly clean their own toilet for their own sanitary sake but that line of thinking doesn’t do so well with public places.
Go into a public bathroom at a truck station or anywhere else that doesn’t have a paid worker to clean up the mess and you’ll see just how much people cooperate to keep it clean. Spoilers: they dont, because almost nobody wants to clean up after themselves let alone others germ filled shit stains, clogged toilets, dirty water splashed+litter everywhere on the ground, and used needles.
Maybe theres some magical unicorn ulturistic people that would haul ass to clean up the place out of kindness of their heart/for the good of community. Good for them, the next dozen people would trash it up again and undo all their hard work out of pure apathy.
Some people are great and upstanding members of society that go out of their way to improve things, most are stupid, lazy, self-interested animals who couldn’t care less about their actions inconveniencing others and making environments worse than when they enter.
Lots of jobs important to keeping places running and clean are shitty, hard work and usually in nasty environments. Getting a gold star on their upstanding citizen sheet isn’t enough incentive.
Now I can totally see a UBI system where people who do voulenteer for these kinds of things get paid more/ gets exclusive societal perks over someone who doesn’t. But now were back to where we started, people getting paid more to do work that very few wants to do or has the skills to do.
From reading your comments, I am developing a sense that you are unaware of living within a particular historic period characterized by particular attitudes, values, and customs.
In particular, you seem to be unaware that societies have existed, and some currently exist, under which the organization of labor is not through wage remuneration.
It might be helpful for you to learn about a variety of different kinds of social organization, in order to gain broader insight.
There’s a bit more to it than just being g nice and not seeing being hurt. It’s just as much self interest in making sure their able to work, and do their part in society/community or what ever group their part of and keep it running
Sure but this was meant to be a simplistic explanation, so I simplified.
Septic tanks only require pumping when something goes wrong with them. I’ve grown up and lived on properties with septic tanks. As long as the microbiome is in check and the tank doesn’t get filled too quickly, it will never need pumping.
First of all: that’s not true. As have/do I, and it’s not a monthly requirement or anything, but it’s an important maintenance item for the longevity of the tank. Not 100% of everything that goes down there is metabolizable. Second of all: what happens when they do?
I’m more of the homesteader mindset, I think that people living out in the country within a socialist society should have the knowledge to do it themselves, and can get the tools from a library (I’m assuming a library economy here). However, socialism is not “everyone is paid the same”. Assuming that there is a state, sanitation workers could be well compensated for their valuable labor.
Edit: Continuing the side note on septic tanks, my dad’s house growing up is over 100 years old and has been in the family since my grandpa bought it before the Korean war. My grandparents put in a modern septic tank some time in the 70s/80s. While I’ve been alive, the septic tank has needed to be pumped maybe once a decade. It does need to happen, but not very often. The real trick is making sure kids don’t flush their legos
I appreciate a good usage of horror movie font
I officially give this the moderator stamp of this being a Good post.
Leftist memes be like
You are the one that wants to be steped by castanza m8, and that its not very trad in my opinion
My brother’s making an app to redistribute the wealth on a weekly basis. Let me know what you think… https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/comingle#/
How can this avoid abuse by bad actors?
It can’t which is why this always collapses. You have to force compliance. You can already see why you cannot attain this system in any way. It only takes 1.
Indiegogo
Guaranteed scam.
Okay, we need to have a talk about this.
Civilization has never been about cooperation and has always, since the rise of agriculture, been about the most domineering exploiting the most vulnerable. This is true regardless of what kind of an economy they were running.
It was true back in ancient times where economies were command ones dominated by a king. What the hell did you think the king did? Say please?
So abolish all rulers?
I accept your terms
Go for it. See what happens.
Aboriginal tribes seem to have a sort-of collectivism. Not exactly sure I could say socialism, but no one owned necessary resources, and with various exceptions, seemed to make sure those who hadn’t committed some egregious wrong to others in their immediate society (that was known). Exploitation still happened and I’m not sure whether the lesser amount of exploration was due to scale, solely, but I’d wager it’s not
Tons of indigenous societies had straight up slaves dude. Painting indigenous societies with a broad brush is not a good idea. They’re as different as modern societies.
I never said they didn’t. I never addressed that at all. I addressed collectivism.
Ok I’ll bite. God help me.
My employer bills me out for $400/hr and I make about $100/hr. I wouldn’t be able to make that much on my own because I don’t have the resources and infrastructure my employer has: admin, IT, expertise, manpower, marketing, legal, and so on. I have zero interest in being self employed. So this is a good arrangement for me.
My clients are happy paying those prices because we provide good service at competitive rates.
My employer is happy because they usually net about 30% profit margin so the partners walk away with $120/hr after paying me and other overhead.
It’s the very definition of capitalism doing exactly what it is supposed to do: providing valuable goods and services to people who want to buy it from people who want to sell it, and everyone walks away happy from the transaction.
I fail to see how this is a violent and exploitative war on civilization itself. Fuck everything about this comic. Why is it even on my feed? Gah.
Back when I did service work I made about $30/hr and was billed out at $60/hr. Seems outrageous right? Until you factor in worker’s comp, other insurance, admin, etc. They needed to bill at $45/hr to just break even, and you need to charge more than that to cover other unexpected costs, downtime, buy new equipment, building maintenance, etc.
The idea that capitalism “steals” the surplus value of labour can be true sure, but it’s often simplified and exaggerated so much like in this meme that it’s hard to take seriously. It’s probably hard to quantify depending on the industry too as there are different expenses and added value by the employer (I bet Wal-Mart is an order of magnitude worse than your local plumbing company for e.g.) If I were to just hire myself out at the exact same rate my employer did but covered all the additional costs and value they added I wouldn’t actually be ahead anything at all, and I’d have to work even more just to end up in the same place in the end, so at least in that case the system benefited us both.
Yes, precisely this.
Workers are absolutely exploited by plenty of shitty companies. But that’s not caused by capitalism, nor is it solved by any other -ism. The causes are complex and the solutions are even moreso, if there even are solutions at all. To sit here bitching about it in the form of a stupid anti capitalism comic is just childishly naive.
Now do someone making $7.25 an hour.
Ok, I make 7.25 an hour and my employer bill me out at $25/hr. My employer walks away with 30% or about $7.50, etc etc. The sample numbers are meaningless.
The material realities of someone making 7.25 (which I will concede is a little bit of a strawman, most people make more but not much) is very different than someone making 100/hr. The petit bourgeois exist for a reason. They’re still exploited but only to a point. They’re “commoners” that benefit from the status quo and wish to uphold it. They have it good enough and can relate to the disadvantaged people’s plight insofar as it allows them to dismiss their criticisms as being lazy, not working hard enough, bootstraps, yada yada. They’re a foil and a buffer between the proletariat and the bourgeoise. You can point to them to say the exact things you’re saying right now
So raise minimum wage to $20-30/hr. You don’t need to toss capitalism out the window to do that. It’s overly simplistic to blame these problems on one ism and naive at best to think these problems will go away for swapping it with another ism.
So are your bullshit numbers
I’m done with you. Come back if you have something constructive to add to the conversation.
I’m happy for you, I really am! It sounds like you have a very good situation, but it’s important to remember that if the company is making profit, they are still taking value of your labor without doing the bulk of the work. Capitalism is designed to do exactly one thing, and that is to maintain the power of the wealthy elite. Any benefits are coincidental.
My example shows all three parties benefitting from the arrangement. Everyone would lose if I, the worker, quit. It’s not exploitation at all. I willingly enter into this agreement because I literally can’t do this on my own. So I benefit from company resources. My clients can’t be serviced by a small one man show so they choose a bigger company too. The firm owners make the most because it’s their company and none of this would be happening without them. It’s not exploitation and it’s not parasitic, it’s symbiotic. We’ve got loads of issues with legislation and enforcement, minimum wage should be like $20-30, corporate governance needs to address all stakeholders and not just shareholders, and so on. But that won’t be resolved by swapping capitalism for any other -ism. It’s overly simplistic to think one ism is the only problem and another ism is the only solution.
Upvoting for good faith engagement, even if a little frustrated. I encourage other leftists here to do the same.
The situation you describe is capitalism working smoothly. Marx himself spoke highly of aspects of capitalism many times. The problem comes when your company’s owner, who has the power to abuse that ownership, does.
By analogy, monarchies are bad, even if your king is good. You can have a fair, just, wise philosopher king. It sounds like you’re lucky in having a good job with a reasonable owner, but your owner could sell to a private equity company tomorrow, who will lay you off, outsource your job to lower costs, bill out the same rate even when lowering the quality, and pocket the difference. They’ll do this for a few years until the brand’s value has been mined, then they’ll scrap your company and sell it for parts.
Socialists like myself argue that because the system can be abused, it inevitably wil be abused. It’s a structural argument, not an argument about each specific case. We argue that democratic control of our jobs is a good thing, in the same way that we got rid of kings to replace them with democratic control is a good thing, because we think that system is more just and fair.
This might be the first discussion I’ve had on Lenny in good faith as you say, so thank you for that.
My position summarized is that we definitely have massive issues with inequality, injustice, lack of rights, etc. But these are issues of legislation, corrupt government and leadership, enforcement, corporate governance, media disinformation, and so on. As you said any system can and will be abused. Swapping capitalism for any other -ism won’t change anything. (What would that even look like?)
Some of my meandering thoughts for potential solutions include controlling media disinformation, campaign finance reform, term/age limits, and ranked voting. It would be great to somehow change corporate governance to require leadership to prioritize stakeholders and not just shareholders, but I don’t really know how to do this. Maybe a requirement that all public companies be owned at least maybe 10% by non-officer employees, enough to get a seat on the board of directors.
It’s extremely complicated and there’s no clear solution. I’m not saying capitalism is perfect, I’m saying it’s overall ok and it’s very childishly naive to make a shitty comic about swapping it for another -ism to solve all of our problems. I really don’t want to argue about it though or get into a flame war, I just can’t handle the vitriol on this forum.
The state is violent and community is violent and privacy is violent
Can anyone come up with an ideology that is not violent and can actually be implemented in the real world with real actors that aren’t smelling roses and giving out hugs?
Personally, I think the only reason evil exists is because the world is unfair, some are advantageous and some are not. This causes people to refuse to “play” fairly which causes bad behaviors such as deception, exploitation, murder, etc. The only way to eliminate or reduce evil is to make the world fairer. One of the ways I can think of is for the fortunate to help the unfortunate.
I don’t believe this to be true. Fairness only matters to people who value fairness. Many people value fairness, but it is irrational to believe that everyone values fairness. Some, not most or even many, don’t care about fairness fundamentally. For these people, interesting fairness does nothing for them. These are the people we need to protect others from while also providing an environment that didn’t necessarily mean removing or killing them.
But what causes people to value fairness so little or so much? When I support equality, I don’t just mean wealth or resources, but everything, and in this case it’s intellect or knowledge. When people have different intellect or knowledge, there is bound to be misunderstanding or miscommunication or other issues. People who have low empathy or are ignorant or dumb to realize how fairness affects people can make things worse. I guess in this case we can make everyone equally smart so no one can deceive and no more misunderstanding. Can’t make smart people dumber so I suggest making dumb people smarter which is to give education to those who need it.
You answered it yourself, but I will elaborate.
Humans are different between individuals. Some people are dumb. Some people are mean. Some people are evil. Fundamentally the paradox of tolerance applies to fairness as well.
Well you wouldn’t like this answer probably. I suggest to eliminate the differences but i think it’s impossible. As long as there is positive, there is negative. To eliminate the negative is to eliminate the positive too, which is neutral and can make life very dull. So my other suggestion is quite radical which is to eliminate life itself. Or just make life or the world as fair as possible even if it’s impossible.
Ah, good old fashioned Nihilism. Another thing that I think is silly.
It is irrelevant what you think personally. Other people don’t necessarily think those things and assuming that they will or do abide by your positions without an incentive is folly.
I’m simply just providing my solutions or opinions. Better than nothing i guess, unless you have a better plan.
Of course, it’s impossible to please everyone. Can’t take some without losing some. So maybe just brute force it? Idk.
Way to go with posstingt “captialism is evil and amhasnt done anything good!” from a device over a network onto a server, none of which would be able to exist at this point without capitalism.
Yes, like democracy, capitalism has huge issues that need to be addressed. However, it’s also the most successful system, which is -like democracy- it’s the biggest in the world.
Thinking that the world will just go on as it does now when we all collectively go love in communist hippy communes is very VERY naive and just plain dumb. Say goodbye to lots of required materials and technologies, say good bye to the huge amounts of food that are available now, say goodbye to all the pharmaceuticals that er have now.
Yes yes, unlimited capitalism asut currently is, sucks. It needs to be curbed badly, but it still must form the basis of our economies. Use its output to generate a socialist society where we can help everyone, care for the environment, etc.
Adding just a little big of nuance to your life might not be a bad thing, you know?
Capitalism must form the basis of our economies?
Says who?
Why?
Economists and every country that wants to be more than backwaters, that’s who. Like democracy, capitalism sucks, but it’s the best system around.
Yes, Capitalism is very flawed and requires a lot of limitations to function well, but if done well, capitalism is better than anything else by factors.
The USA is capitalism gone way overboard, but still, poor people now under capitalism have it better than people ever would or could have it under, say, communism. There are extremes, like the homeless that should be helped by social systems that the US simply doesn’t have because, again, capitalism has gone way overboard there, but overall there is a reason why it’s by far the most powerful country in the world.
I agree that we should equalize the levels for everybody, but I want to do that by pulling up the poor, you want to do it by kicking everybody not poor down. You keep capitalism but then start taxing the crap out of the rich…hell, tax them 100% income once they reach a certain upper limit. Use all that money for social networks that catch those that don’t get successful. That is what makes succes, Communism does not.
Your comments are mostly a Gish gallop.
Mainstream institutions are dominated by liberal economists because leftist economists are generally not considered for positions and leftist economics is generally not taught to students. In the last several decades economics departments have become even stricter, ensuring a composition of tight ideological alignment to neoliberalism.
Material is provided by nature, and transformed by human labor, aided by tools and machines.
Material and technology is independent of social systems.
Uuuhhh, what? We’re You responding to a different post?
Say goodbye to lots of required materials and technologies
Ah, got it.
And no, that is not how anything works. Lots of materials we use these days are very rare, only found in specific countries or require very specialist (and rare) factories to refine. This means that if we need specific materials there simply is no way to get it locally.
Same with building certain technologies. Want to have computers with those 7nm chips? Good luck. you’ll need thousand of specialist engineers, highly refined source materials, boat loads of other suppliers, highly specific machines that are able to create your chips that basically are produced by a world monopoly at the moment (hello ASML!)
Say goodbye to all of that.
Trade and occupation are independent of economic system.
Groups obtaining minerals from other regions, and individuals working occupationally as engineers, will both remain after capitalism.
Capitalism is simply a social system, in that it broadly determines various kinds of social relationships within a society.
The main relationship that defines capitalism is the relationship between employee versus employer, or worker versus boss.
Without bosses, we still trade resources, and we still create products
Removing property rights is not a world I’d want to live in. This is the kind of stuff you believe before you develop a mature and nuanced understanding of society.
You do understand that doesn’t mean you’d lose your house and toothbrush correct?
I literally work in intellectual property. You must think I’m actually Satan incarnate.
Do you think what is essentially “Oooh, I bet that upsets you” is conducive to good faith conversation? Or even just general pleasantness?
If I asked you “Are you lashing out from fear that you won’t survive the revolution?”, that would be unkind. It would come across as hostile, confrontational and I would be presupposing your own thoughts on society and your relation to it.
Instead, I’ll engage with you as close to your own terms as I’m able: Do you think your country’s intellectual property laws are fit for purpose?
Far more fit for purpose than scrapping the concept altogether as this graphic suggests.
You see laws evolve when they are deemed to no longer be fit for purpose, IP laws are constantly reviewed through case law.
Far more fit for purpose than scrapping the concept altogether as this graphic suggests.
But they are broken though, aren’t they? Like there aren’t any authors going “Oh gee, if I couldn’t guarantee the rights to my works for over half a century after I dead then I’d pack in this writing lark and go and work at the widget factory”.
You see laws evolve when they are deemed to no longer be fit for purpose, IP laws are constantly reviewed through case law.
We’re talking about revolution, not evolution. Legislation, not interpretation. I’m asking if you were told to rip out the laws and start again, what would you do? Is that not a more interesting conversation than explaining to me how case law works?
I mean if you want to play “I work in IP LOL Lefty snowflake tears” then sure. Do that. Hope you have a nice time with it. Seems boring though.
There is more to IP than just copyright. There are many inventors who would pack it in if they couldn’t guarantee patents for their products. I do lots of work for individuals and small and medium enterprises. Patents protect them from being infringed by large corporations. Sounds like you’re trying to school a highly qualified professional in something that you’ve only just googled 5 minutes ago. I see Lemmy is just like Reddit in that way.
It’s not a far more interesting question to me because ultimately it’s not going to happen. When you spend too long theorycrafting instead of just trying to think about sensible policy that’s workable in reality you end up in bubbles like this agreeing with memes written by 14 year olds who have just discovered Marx.
Sounds like you’re trying to school a highly qualified professional in something that you’ve only just googled 5 minutes ago. I see Lemmy is just like Reddit in that way.
Nobody is “schooling” anyone, friend. You brought up IP, I attempted to engage with you because I thought you wanted to talk about it. And now you’re crying about nobody can disagree with a “highly qualified professional” and have turned a request for you to share your thoughts and experience into a confrontation.
just trying to think about sensible policy that’s workable in reality
That’s literally what I’ve been trying to do. To get you to tell me what you think sensible policy is.
I think I’m upsetting you, so I’m going to disengage now. Hope your day gets better, mate.
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Many theories propose making a distiction between private and personal ownership. You own your house and your toothbrush, but you can’t solely own the company that extracts value from the labor of other people.
The initial point is begging the question. The value of labor is that point at which the seller of that labor and the buyer of that labor agree is fair. This is done, principally, in the way of a wage or salary, among other various methods of compensation.
The rest of the post relies on the first sentence. Thus the entire post is fallacious.
Your post assumes workers and owners of the means of production are on equal footing which is laughable on it’s face.
Oh yeah people working in sweatshops make a fair wage. Just complete nonsense if you analyze it for more than 1 second.
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Engage with the post, please. What about the comic is incorrect?
Everything.
Could you elaborate? Why is it incorrect?
