My brother in Christ, I’ve just explained in detail how those points were critique so Dems could fix their campaign and convince the populace to vote for them, and you answered to that as if I told you those were reasons leftists didn’t go to vote. I know the Trump would be worse. That’s precisely why the left tried to persuade Dems to change their direction. I don’t know if you’re answering just on reaction, without any thought going that, or are you wearing some blinds not allowing you to hear my arguments. The original point was that you claimed the left didn’t show up for the elections, and to my detailed argument about how that doesn’t make any sense seeing how desperate the left was for Harris victory, you replied with basically “yes it does”. Yes, Harris should have dismantled lies of the right about illegal immigration, instead of legitimizing it and allowing the right to change it from just the “border issue” to “economy issue based on the unsafe border”. Since Dems instead went with “yes the border is a problem but we will fix it” the average voter had no reason not to believe that the border was the pressing issue GOP made it up to be. Why would you or I care about the fact that people spreading those lies are insane? They shouldn’t have tried to placate the GOP decision makers who spread this propaganda, but dismantle their lies so general populace had opposing viewpoint.
“You’re pretending that the verbiage didn’t change to ‘don’t vote/vote 3rd party because of this’”
Yeah, it absolutely didn’t change to that. None of the major leftist political media creators suggested voting for 3rd party instead of Harris, especially in the swing states. What happened on lemmy.ml was Russian bots posting bullshit. And I won’t deny those posts were posted and comments commented, but you yourself know fully well those were bots, so what the hell are you talking about and why are you blaming that on the left? Not to mention that ml ideologically represents only a small subset of the “left” and most folks don’t consider tankies leftists due to their authoritarian bent, that’s beside the point. It was absolutely against the best interests of the left to not vote for Harris, which is why the left canvased and campaigned for her, despite not agreeing with her message.
If Dems shitty campaign was 100% the reason Trump won, then he’d have won 100% of the votes. There were many reasons that helped him, including the fact that USA is racist and sexist and many people probably just didn’t want to vote for black woman. Leftists helped Dems get a bit more %, though in current political landscape the left doesn’t have nearly enough power to influence decisions of major politicians, and unfortunately Harris decided to ignore them.
It’s not armchair analysis, the critique from the left was constructive and included how to change the messaging to improve the odds. I won’t be able to tell you that Dems would have had amazing victory if they did everything or anything the left tried to persuade them to do, since they didn’t and I don’t know how the future would have looked then, or how the right would have responded, but you can’t also claim they wouldn’t or go into the territory of claiming that they actually harmed Harris chances. You could have claimed that if the left was silent, it doesn’t make much sense even with the point you’ve initially made (that they didn’t show up because Harris wasn’t left-leaning enough), since even if the left was complicit in spreading anti-Harris propaganda - opposite of which happened - they would have still applied pressure on Dems to address their issues. I never claimed that Dems would have definitely won if they listened to the left; it was you, who claimed that Dems lost because of some apparent actions from the left, to support of which you only have a handful of posts on a platform you’re aware have been heavily botted, as it was repeatedly discussed topic. Out of us two I’d definitely see you more leaning into having a confirmation bias in this case, especially since you’re ignoring just how absurd the idea of the left boycotting Harris is. Trump literally said he wants to take care of the “radical left” in the country “using army if that’s required”, USA citizens with a leftist footprint in social media were threatened with death by a president candidate, and you think anyone from the left wanted that to happen? Unlike centrists the left campaigned for Harris as if their lives depended on that, because their lives did depend on that! You are delusional if you believe it was leftists that failed to show up on the elections day. They were very active in attempts to make Harris more electable, and Dems lost despite that, not thanks to it.
I don’t know how reliable those numbers are, but that was exactly my point - Dems lost votes on alienating arab and genocide disliking voters and leftists attempted many times to persuade Harris to change her stance on support for Israel. Unless you believe all arabs and anti-genocide voters are leftists I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with that link.
Are you joking? Or are you delusional? Have you linked the article you meant to? The article said that support of Israel doing genocide in Gaza is low. People obviously protested the military support for genocide, that much I believe is a given, as people did that in all major democratic countries even if those countries didn’t support Israel in any way. And you’re claiming that Harris lost elections not because she failed to convince her electorate that she will do something about it, but rather because this electorate protested? And you’re blaming the fact that protests happened solely on the left, and think that broader populace was fine with genocide until leftists did something?
I’m pretty sure you have to be trolling at this point, but okay. Lets square it up. USA provided military and diplomatic aid to Israel, that allowed Israel to conduct a Palestinian genocide in Gaza. They could have stopped the support at that point, but they didn’t. People protested spending their tax money on exploding children in Gaza, and USA government attempted to silence those protests, which included censuring Rashida Talib. Biden outright lied, claiming he saw photos of newborns beheaded by Hamas, a claim we know now was completely false. And lets not talk about the morality of it all, lets talk about optics, how that entire affair looked like to USA citizens. Democrats came out like blood hungry warmongers and Biden refused to do anything about that. He sometimes said that he asked Netanyahu to stop, but got ignored and rewarded Israel with more taxpayer paid weapons. That made Dems look additionally weak. Then the shift happened and Harris came into the forefront, where she every now and then said something to the effect of “she will do something to help”, but continued to refuse to platform pro-palestinian voices and to promise to take care of Israel defences, for example here. She and her party has all the power, in the eyes of the people, to do something right now (or rather, back then, now Biden sent even more weapons), but she did nothing. One of her most clipped moments was her admission she wouldn’t do anything differently from Biden, who already had all that blood on his hands in the eyes of the voters.
And you blame the protesters for asking her to do something instead of her for doing nothing/not enough? And not even the protesters, you’re singling out the leftists as the people who caused harm here, while they asked the other side to stop, and other side happily enabled genocide. You do realise it’s not just left wing and people interested in politics that care about people dying, right? Because aaaall of that above convinced people who didn’t think about politics on a daily basis that Harris is unworthy of trust, which put her on a level playing field with Trump. Some of those people even bought the argument that Trump is anti-war and went to vote for him. And you think the left did it? That they were the sole force of disapproval that caused the protests to erupt, and not that protests were obviously justified and most likely reaction to bombs exploding children in Gaza?
The blame for that lies entirely on Dems, specifically on Biden and Harris. They could have done the popular thing and stopped sending weapons to Israel. They didn’t, and it caused a lot of people to think worse of them because of that. Out of those folks, those who didn’t want to understand politics and flet they didn’t have anything to worry about regardless of who won, or had any other number of median voter thoughts, decided to stay home. Or vote Trump, since he confidently claimed he will stop that war, despite obviously not planning to.
Blaming protesters protesting an unpopular and sustained political decision of the ruling government for this government losing the elections is wild. The mental gymnastics you must need to perform to justify that take baffle me. The gall to blame the left specifically for all that, as if all people wouldn’t respond to genocide negatively, is incredible. Overall, 10/10, would not reccomend. I don’t intend to engage further in this discussion if that’s the kind of bullshit you want to drag up, personally I find it sort of disgusting.
If protestors are protesting Harris by giving power to someone who will commit more genocide then are they acting in good faith? Of course not. That was an excuse used by bad faith actors to trick the gullible into giving Trump power. And you’re just repeating the talking points that the left was tricked with while trying to claim the left didn’t do it, it was just bots.
You’re the one baselessly claiming that the left protested by not voting, the protests I spoke of were those where people came out in the streets, because those actually happened. Nothing in the article or my comments pointed to people on the left not wanting to vote. Also, you seem to have missed the part where regular people disliked the genocide.
“Democrats Ignored Gaza and Brought Down Their Party.”
“Israel’s slaughter and starvation of Palestinians — funded by U.S. taxpayers and live-streamed on social media,” according to Beinart, has “triggered one of the greatest surges in progressive activism in a generation”.
“Brought down their party” indicates the progressive activism was related to voting. Not protesting in the streets.
“Democrats Ignored Gaza and Brought Down Their Party” indicates nothing about activism and everything about Democrats doing unpopular stuff that costed them elections. The activism, all along, was focused on making Biden/Harris do something in Gaza, not voting them out, as voting them out wouldn’t make any sense neither for the left, nor for Palestinians. The idea that it would, and that the protests intended to do that is delusional, it doesn’t even hint at having any connection with reality, pushing things in that direction would do nothing to achieve the aims activists had. You mixing up bot activity on lemmy with leftists protesting and also canvasing on the streets make no sense, and your only point of connection is the fact that those bots posted on lemmy.ml. You even have a straight forward article that says Dems lost the elections because they refused to do anything with Gaza (a disputable position at the very least, but nevermind), which obviously means that general electorate was less willing to vote for them and that resulted in less votes, and you conclude from that that leftists specifically protested the genocide by not voting. You ignore the obvious and substitute it for the unsubstantiated absurd.
All you’ve explained is your opinions. Your “arguments” are just opinions. But you are stating them as if they are facts.
Polling showed that border control is important to more than just republicans. So dems did their job and said they would address it.
You came up with some conspiracy theory that no one cared about border control until dems said they would address it.
“You’re pretending that the verbiage didn’t change to ‘don’t vote/vote 3rd party because of this’” Yeah, it absolutely didn’t change to that.
What happened on lemmy.ml was Russian bots posting bullshit. And I won’t deny those posts were posted and comments commented
You deny the verbiage changed to “don’t vote/vote 3rd party” then you admit that it happened, claiming it was only bots.
The reason bot farms exist is to change public opinion. They claim to be someone they are not and repeat talking points until other who are not bots start repeating what they say. In this case other leftists.
the critique from the left was constructive and included how to change the messaging to improve the odds
You claim that it is just critique. In reality it is a tactic called FUD used to discourage voters.
How could leftists, who are such a small part of the voting populous possibly know how to run an effective campaign better than a team of strategists that have been doing it as a career?
My brother in Christ, I’ve just explained in detail how those points were critique so Dems could fix their campaign and convince the populace to vote for them, and you answered to that as if I told you those were reasons leftists didn’t go to vote. I know the Trump would be worse. That’s precisely why the left tried to persuade Dems to change their direction. I don’t know if you’re answering just on reaction, without any thought going that, or are you wearing some blinds not allowing you to hear my arguments. The original point was that you claimed the left didn’t show up for the elections, and to my detailed argument about how that doesn’t make any sense seeing how desperate the left was for Harris victory, you replied with basically “yes it does”. Yes, Harris should have dismantled lies of the right about illegal immigration, instead of legitimizing it and allowing the right to change it from just the “border issue” to “economy issue based on the unsafe border”. Since Dems instead went with “yes the border is a problem but we will fix it” the average voter had no reason not to believe that the border was the pressing issue GOP made it up to be. Why would you or I care about the fact that people spreading those lies are insane? They shouldn’t have tried to placate the GOP decision makers who spread this propaganda, but dismantle their lies so general populace had opposing viewpoint.
“You’re pretending that the verbiage didn’t change to ‘don’t vote/vote 3rd party because of this’” Yeah, it absolutely didn’t change to that. None of the major leftist political media creators suggested voting for 3rd party instead of Harris, especially in the swing states. What happened on lemmy.ml was Russian bots posting bullshit. And I won’t deny those posts were posted and comments commented, but you yourself know fully well those were bots, so what the hell are you talking about and why are you blaming that on the left? Not to mention that ml ideologically represents only a small subset of the “left” and most folks don’t consider tankies leftists due to their authoritarian bent, that’s beside the point. It was absolutely against the best interests of the left to not vote for Harris, which is why the left canvased and campaigned for her, despite not agreeing with her message.
If Dems shitty campaign was 100% the reason Trump won, then he’d have won 100% of the votes. There were many reasons that helped him, including the fact that USA is racist and sexist and many people probably just didn’t want to vote for black woman. Leftists helped Dems get a bit more %, though in current political landscape the left doesn’t have nearly enough power to influence decisions of major politicians, and unfortunately Harris decided to ignore them.
It’s not armchair analysis, the critique from the left was constructive and included how to change the messaging to improve the odds. I won’t be able to tell you that Dems would have had amazing victory if they did everything or anything the left tried to persuade them to do, since they didn’t and I don’t know how the future would have looked then, or how the right would have responded, but you can’t also claim they wouldn’t or go into the territory of claiming that they actually harmed Harris chances. You could have claimed that if the left was silent, it doesn’t make much sense even with the point you’ve initially made (that they didn’t show up because Harris wasn’t left-leaning enough), since even if the left was complicit in spreading anti-Harris propaganda - opposite of which happened - they would have still applied pressure on Dems to address their issues. I never claimed that Dems would have definitely won if they listened to the left; it was you, who claimed that Dems lost because of some apparent actions from the left, to support of which you only have a handful of posts on a platform you’re aware have been heavily botted, as it was repeatedly discussed topic. Out of us two I’d definitely see you more leaning into having a confirmation bias in this case, especially since you’re ignoring just how absurd the idea of the left boycotting Harris is. Trump literally said he wants to take care of the “radical left” in the country “using army if that’s required”, USA citizens with a leftist footprint in social media were threatened with death by a president candidate, and you think anyone from the left wanted that to happen? Unlike centrists the left campaigned for Harris as if their lives depended on that, because their lives did depend on that! You are delusional if you believe it was leftists that failed to show up on the elections day. They were very active in attempts to make Harris more electable, and Dems lost despite that, not thanks to it.
https://lemmy.world/post/22149390
I don’t know how reliable those numbers are, but that was exactly my point - Dems lost votes on alienating arab and genocide disliking voters and leftists attempted many times to persuade Harris to change her stance on support for Israel. Unless you believe all arabs and anti-genocide voters are leftists I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with that link.
The article said dems lost votes as a result of progressive activism. Progressives are left leaning on the spectrum.
Harris said she would do everything in her power to end the war in Gaza.
Netanyahu celebrated Trumps win.
Are you joking? Or are you delusional? Have you linked the article you meant to? The article said that support of Israel doing genocide in Gaza is low. People obviously protested the military support for genocide, that much I believe is a given, as people did that in all major democratic countries even if those countries didn’t support Israel in any way. And you’re claiming that Harris lost elections not because she failed to convince her electorate that she will do something about it, but rather because this electorate protested? And you’re blaming the fact that protests happened solely on the left, and think that broader populace was fine with genocide until leftists did something?
I’m pretty sure you have to be trolling at this point, but okay. Lets square it up. USA provided military and diplomatic aid to Israel, that allowed Israel to conduct a Palestinian genocide in Gaza. They could have stopped the support at that point, but they didn’t. People protested spending their tax money on exploding children in Gaza, and USA government attempted to silence those protests, which included censuring Rashida Talib. Biden outright lied, claiming he saw photos of newborns beheaded by Hamas, a claim we know now was completely false. And lets not talk about the morality of it all, lets talk about optics, how that entire affair looked like to USA citizens. Democrats came out like blood hungry warmongers and Biden refused to do anything about that. He sometimes said that he asked Netanyahu to stop, but got ignored and rewarded Israel with more taxpayer paid weapons. That made Dems look additionally weak. Then the shift happened and Harris came into the forefront, where she every now and then said something to the effect of “she will do something to help”, but continued to refuse to platform pro-palestinian voices and to promise to take care of Israel defences, for example here. She and her party has all the power, in the eyes of the people, to do something right now (or rather, back then, now Biden sent even more weapons), but she did nothing. One of her most clipped moments was her admission she wouldn’t do anything differently from Biden, who already had all that blood on his hands in the eyes of the voters.
And you blame the protesters for asking her to do something instead of her for doing nothing/not enough? And not even the protesters, you’re singling out the leftists as the people who caused harm here, while they asked the other side to stop, and other side happily enabled genocide. You do realise it’s not just left wing and people interested in politics that care about people dying, right? Because aaaall of that above convinced people who didn’t think about politics on a daily basis that Harris is unworthy of trust, which put her on a level playing field with Trump. Some of those people even bought the argument that Trump is anti-war and went to vote for him. And you think the left did it? That they were the sole force of disapproval that caused the protests to erupt, and not that protests were obviously justified and most likely reaction to bombs exploding children in Gaza?
The blame for that lies entirely on Dems, specifically on Biden and Harris. They could have done the popular thing and stopped sending weapons to Israel. They didn’t, and it caused a lot of people to think worse of them because of that. Out of those folks, those who didn’t want to understand politics and flet they didn’t have anything to worry about regardless of who won, or had any other number of median voter thoughts, decided to stay home. Or vote Trump, since he confidently claimed he will stop that war, despite obviously not planning to.
Blaming protesters protesting an unpopular and sustained political decision of the ruling government for this government losing the elections is wild. The mental gymnastics you must need to perform to justify that take baffle me. The gall to blame the left specifically for all that, as if all people wouldn’t respond to genocide negatively, is incredible. Overall, 10/10, would not reccomend. I don’t intend to engage further in this discussion if that’s the kind of bullshit you want to drag up, personally I find it sort of disgusting.
If protestors are protesting Harris by giving power to someone who will commit more genocide then are they acting in good faith? Of course not. That was an excuse used by bad faith actors to trick the gullible into giving Trump power. And you’re just repeating the talking points that the left was tricked with while trying to claim the left didn’t do it, it was just bots.
You’re the one baselessly claiming that the left protested by not voting, the protests I spoke of were those where people came out in the streets, because those actually happened. Nothing in the article or my comments pointed to people on the left not wanting to vote. Also, you seem to have missed the part where regular people disliked the genocide.
This was from the article:
“Brought down their party” indicates the progressive activism was related to voting. Not protesting in the streets.
“Democrats Ignored Gaza and Brought Down Their Party” indicates nothing about activism and everything about Democrats doing unpopular stuff that costed them elections. The activism, all along, was focused on making Biden/Harris do something in Gaza, not voting them out, as voting them out wouldn’t make any sense neither for the left, nor for Palestinians. The idea that it would, and that the protests intended to do that is delusional, it doesn’t even hint at having any connection with reality, pushing things in that direction would do nothing to achieve the aims activists had. You mixing up bot activity on lemmy with leftists protesting and also canvasing on the streets make no sense, and your only point of connection is the fact that those bots posted on lemmy.ml. You even have a straight forward article that says Dems lost the elections because they refused to do anything with Gaza (a disputable position at the very least, but nevermind), which obviously means that general electorate was less willing to vote for them and that resulted in less votes, and you conclude from that that leftists specifically protested the genocide by not voting. You ignore the obvious and substitute it for the unsubstantiated absurd.
All you’ve explained is your opinions. Your “arguments” are just opinions. But you are stating them as if they are facts.
Polling showed that border control is important to more than just republicans. So dems did their job and said they would address it.
You came up with some conspiracy theory that no one cared about border control until dems said they would address it.
You deny the verbiage changed to “don’t vote/vote 3rd party” then you admit that it happened, claiming it was only bots.
The reason bot farms exist is to change public opinion. They claim to be someone they are not and repeat talking points until other who are not bots start repeating what they say. In this case other leftists.
You claim that it is just critique. In reality it is a tactic called FUD used to discourage voters.
How could leftists, who are such a small part of the voting populous possibly know how to run an effective campaign better than a team of strategists that have been doing it as a career?