‘Baldur’s Gate 3’ can be a fantastic experience and a bad game at the same time.

  • bermuda@beehaw.org
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    1 year ago

    I really don’t want to use this comment to shame people for getting their start in game design.

    But it’s really weird to me to see a semi-major internet publication like this highlight comments from a guy with a youtube channel that has 508 subscribers and who has only been a professional game designer for 2 years as head of an indie studio, according to his LinkedIn. Sure, anybody can teach game design and even teach it well. You don’t have to be the next John Carmack to do it properly, but it’s weird that this guy was highlighted for an article in this way.

    Also his first game with the indie studio is some sort of indie MMORPG that’s a parody of RuneScape.

    • MJBrune@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      Honestly, it’s this part that really bothers me:

      Take it from Cory Rodis, a professional game developer, designer, and educator with over a decade of experience in the field.

      Clearly from Linkedin and Moby Games, this person does not have over a decade of experience in the field. If you count teaching as “in the field” (which to me, in the field means not teaching but actually doing.) then they have 6 years of experience. Not counting that, they have 2 years.

      Also, and maybe I am out of the loop but this doesn’t seem to be a semi-major internet publication to me. This is my first time hearing of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Abrams#The_Mary_Sue this is the only information I really found on it’s popularity and it seems kind of weak. Am I missing something, is it a really popular site for something like anime or comics?

      • bermuda@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        I see the site posted a lot so I assumed it’s semi-major but I dunno it’s just an internet news site.

        Anyway I agree the “in the field” part is weird. Also the fact that the author knew the “expert” that was cited and the info came from a discord post makes it seem like a bit of a puff piece.

    • AdellcomdoisL@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      Not gonna lie, this was exactly the first thing I looked up, though I changed my mind in posting because it seemed to be a bad faith article in general. But yes, if you’re going to have a person stand by their professionalism and experience, especially when making such harsh criticism over a highly rated game while demanding more media literacy, I think have someone that actual has relevant professional experience would make it far less eye-rolling to read.

    • Chaotic Entropy@feddit.uk
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      1 year ago

      Outlets these days are more than happy to signal boost random controversial statements for clicks. Every time I see something that says “receiving hundreds of likes on Twitter”… that’s nothing. That’s practically nothing.

  • Vodulas [they/them]@beehaw.org
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    1 year ago

    I’ve played through all 3 acts. Obviously in no way have done everything, but I never ran into a situation where your character would get killed for a bad dialogue choice. The “Volo’s eye” event referenced is for sure an example of the telegraphed outcome being the opposite of what actually goes down, but I really can’t think of another time that happens. Even that choice did not end in death. Some options end in tough fights, and maybe fights above your level, but I was never surprised by them.

    Bringing up save scumming is an odd criticism for a CRPG. That has been a long running discussion, but you can choose not to do it if you don’t like it. It doesn’t mean it is bad game design to include saving whenever you want.

    • Stepos Venzny@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      I’ve absolutely died as a result of bad dialogue choices but that’s just role playing; sometimes something you might choose to do can only logically result in your death and I, for one, am happy to be given that choice. I’ve straight up deleted a character profile with lots of progress because there was no in-character way not to do the thing that would kill me in dialogue. That game over is just that character’s canonical ending as far as I’m concerned. He couldn’t not shit-talk that god, that god couldn’t not erase him from existence out of spite. If the game had not provided me with an option to shit-talk the god, I would have been annoyed that none of the dialogue options were true to my character.

      • MJBrune@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        I feel like in some ways that’s a limitation of the game not the RP though. Like the game is clearly stating you will not have a character that shit-talks gods. A good DM would see your RP choice and play into it rather than stomping you cold for a simple character personality. It’s equal to saying “you will never play a dumb comic relief”. Where in a lot of good RPGs the dumb comic relief is the best option. In the same way I’ve seen a lot of people want to play god-worshiping characters that lose faith in their god and switch.

    • Dalek Thal@aussie.zone
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      1 year ago

      Yeah, ultimately this article reads as if it is questioning the quality of a work on the basis of how the audience engages (or doesn’t engage) with it. Ultimately there is one case where the character dies due to a bad dialogue choice, and that response is very clearly a joke one for if you’re not roleplaying.

      I dunno, it just seems as if the article is clickbait, and if this game dev would prefer playing a game 90% ludonarrative dissonance and 10% no meaningful player choice.

      • Sina@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        I think the problem with player choice is that you are often not presented with the choice that you or your character would normally want, or that the game intentionally hides the information from you that you would need to make an informed decision. Also this is subjective, but I don’t like being pranked by the dungeon master, I quit tabletop rpgs due to this reason as a kid.

        And the case about the game being interactive fiction instead of a “game” game is not entirely unfounded either. Not that I would consider that a bad thing necessarily.

        (edit: I wrote this 1h into Act 3. Since then I finished the game & I found Act3 the best part of the game & rather amazing on the whole…)

        • JareeZy@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          But ist that not part of it? Being put in situations where you don’t have all the information, where you don’t know the potential outcomes and where you can permanently fuck things up? For me at least, that was a big part of the pull in playing TRPGs and CRPGs. It is, after all, not a strategy game.

          • Sina@beehaw.org
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            1 year ago

            In a good rpg, having a couple of these is fine, but in my opinion in Baldur’s Gate 3 these intentionally undecipherable decisions are overabundant. I’m not saying BG3 is bad, in fact many and perhaps most things are absolutely incredible. I just feel that that presented choice options & some parts of the big plot could have been done better.

    • Pseu@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      a situation where your character would get killed for a bad dialogue choice.

      I think this is a ridiculous thing to criticize too. Dialogue is important in a game like this and it has (sometimes lethal) consequences.

      Imagine if this argument were applied to combat. It turns out that it is impossible to beat some encounters by role-playing a loner wizard who refuses to cast spells. Nobody in their right mind would actually believe that is a valid criticism.

      • MJBrune@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        I absolutely agree. It’d be like if in RDR2 the “rob dialogue” was criticized for enacting combat. That said I haven’t played BG3 so I can’t know exactly what they were talking about or how it feels unfair.

    • Sina@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      I have died twice due to dialog choices. Once Lae’zel killed me in camp & once I turned into a mind flayer under the Absolute, thus ending my journey.

    • ArtZuron@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      I know of three instant game end dialogue options. One with Astarion, one with Volo, and one in the House of Hope. I think there might be a few more as well.

      There’s also one with Mystra I think.

      • jjsca@infosec.pub
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        1 year ago

        There’s also one in the githyanki creche. If you aren’t nice to >!Vlaakith, she casts wish on you and kills your entire party instantly!<

      • Callie@pawb.social
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        1 year ago

        If you’re counting the one with astarion that I’m thinking of, then I think the one at the very beginning after truly starting act 1 with the mind flayer could count

          • Callie@pawb.social
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            1 year ago

            EXTREMELY EARLY ACT 1 SPOILER

            spoiler

            it’s when the ship crashes and you find the dying mind flayer in the wreckage. he will attempt to control your parasite and make you give yourself unto him and if you fail the checks to stop it, he’ll eat your brain and if you don’t have any other party members then it’ll game over

    • Adora 🏳️‍⚧️@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      Exactly. I literally don’t understand why people even care about save scumming (and the name is ridiculous to me too lol). It’s like my favorite part of the game. I love being able to relax and know I can mess around without completely fucking my game over. I get to explore everything to the fullest. If someone wants to be a hard ass about it, they can just…not reload?

    • hascat@programming.dev
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      1 year ago

      There’s one dialogue in the Githyanki creche where your entire party is instantly killed if you choose the “wrong” option. There’s nothing to indicate that the choice will lead to that outcome. I’m not aware of any other dialogues like that, however.

      • 👁️👄👁️@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        There’s nothing to indicate that the choice will lead to that outcome.

        Who would’ve thought that saying fuck off to a literal god had consequences? Why do you think the game triggers an auto save when you enter the room? It’s safe for the game to be able to do that when it just auto saves for you right before, meaning you lose no progress. You’re ignoring a lot of context here, and it absolutely indicates this outcome lol

      • Fushuan [he/him]@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        She’s ultra authoritarian, for you to reach that dialogue option she knows you have something she desires, and she is a literal god while you are not even lvl 15, god killing is lvl 20 stuff, not 12 which is the cap, of course that she will kill you and grab what’s theirs instead of letting you go, wtf?

    • ConstableJelly@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      This is such a absurd statement I’m inclined to agree about the trolling.

      Maybe you love the characters, maybe you love the world, or maybe you love the character creator. That’s all well and good, but the fact of the matter is that all of those things—and a good many other aspects that Baldur’s Gate 3 has been praised for—are poor measurements of evaluating a game. If these subjectivities were the most important aspects of games, then we could say that chess or soccer are bad games. And I don’t think I need to explain how absurd that statement would be.

      • HarkMahlberg@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        I mean, what does he think makes a good game, if not sorry, characters, and world? Must a game only be evaluated by it’s rules and systems? Then guess what, BG3 is built on DND 5e, arguably the most successful RPG system of all time. What even is his complaint?

  • Adora 🏳️‍⚧️@beehaw.org
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    1 year ago

    I read this as someone being real mad that the game is chaotic, and it’s like, that’s the best part about the game to me? There’s no ACTUAL DM, so the next best thing is what in my mind I’m calling the “death loop” system, just being able to go back and load a different save. At a game table the DM would, within reason, find a way to work with PCs being ridiculous; since it’s not possible to truly replicate that, the game just embeds chaos in the decision trees instead. That’s literally what makes it so fun. Most of the time the game is telegraphing what the real dumbass choices are, but I like how it’s not always immediately obvious. It keeps me on my toes. And sometimes I just save before choosing the stupidest option simply because I want to watch that shit play out.

    I just feel like they’ve fundamentally misunderstood the point here.

  • Chaotic Entropy@feddit.uk
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    1 year ago

    “As soon as I saw what my instructor had to say”…

    Uh… Huh… okay then. The writer might be a little close to this piece.

  • macniel@feddit.de
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    1 year ago

    If those are the most fatal flaws… well I guess it’s pretty much perfect then?

  • smellythief@beehaw.org
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    1 year ago

    As someone who hasn’t yet played it but will, and wants to like it, should I read this? Will it point out negative things I might agree with but would never have noticed otherwise?

    • sushibowl@feddit.nl
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      1 year ago

      It’s not that deep. Here’s the two main critiques leveled towards the game in the article.

      • you don’t always know the consequences of your actions, and they’re not always predictable: a seemingly sensible choice sometimes ends badly, and a seemingly dumb choice could get you a reward
      • you can load a save and redo your things whenever you want, i.e. save-scum

      These are both somewhat obvious just from the structure of the game. Ultimately the conclusion the author is shooting for is that this makes Baldur’s Gate 3 a bad game but a good piece of interactive fiction.

      The author uses the mechanics of chess often as sort of an example of the pinnacle of game design which to me is telling. Video Games are much broader than that. Insisting that people should not call the thing you don’t like a game but instead “interactive fiction” is pedantry at best, and gatekeeping at worst.

      Sure, if you view the game through the lens of chess you will come away with these flaws. But for example, if you always knew the consequences of every choice the narrative tension would be destroyed. Of course chess has no such concern, so if we’re looking at games through that lens then narrative tension is of no value. Ultimately I think this is just a very narrow viewpoint of what games should be.

  • 👁️👄👁️@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    This is one of the worst articles I’ve ever read lol. Not to mention these are all just variations of “I didn’t like the writing”.

    But, as a game design student and hobbyist (…)

    That’s their credentials? Oh no…