Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents::Several state governors are fighting fear mongering as they attempt to reduce transportation emissions in their states.
As someone who has been driving an EV for several years now, it really is nuts hearing people on the internet constantly repeat the same three or four stupid talking points that people with first hand experience have been rebutting for the better part of a decade at this point.
Universal_healthcare has entered the chat.
I drove half way across the country and back last summer in my EV and it was great, except for a couple of the stops being in shady locations.
EV rest stops still have a little ways to go to becoming more convenient, but there is no range issue.
Yup, we did 2 x 5200+ mile round trips this year with zero issues. I think the problem is that people don’t like the fact that you actually have to think a tiny bit and plan a tiny bit sometimes instead of just jumping in the car and going until it yells at you to stop and get gas. People in this country, especially the anti-ev crowd, really dislike having to think for themselves.
I was among those worrying about range until I spent 5 minutes thinking about what I actually do on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.
We’d still have my wife’s ICE van, we both work from home, and 99% of the time my work-related travel is local (within 5 miles). My wife’s van can pull the camper for our camping trips, or for our longer drives.
I have no good reason not to get an EV for my next car.
I would actually consider if you actually need 2 cars at all given your description of the situation. If we’re worried about the environment flat getting rid of a car is a bigger win than an EV.
If a car sits in the driveway 99% of the year, it’s not hurting the environment for 99% of its existence. If they continue to use it as a daily driver, I agree with you. But keeping a second vehicle for situations where it is specifically suited isn’t really that big a problem.
Well, it’s the build cost for a new car vs not building that car in terms of the environment. I guess buying a used car would alleviate that, but at some point having another car built is worse than not having it built.
Not driving a car for long periods of time is bad for the car. That means that they would replace it after a few years, and still have two cars, instead of keeping just the one. It takes a lot of resources to build a car, even more so for EVs.
I’ve very seriously considered that. Right now, we could probably go down to one car without issue. We have two reasons why I’d like to maintain a second, though. We have young kids, and we are already starting to run them around to different places at the same time. We’re looking to move soon, and the idea is to move outside of town where we have more room. That would make basically every drive longer, which would increase the likelihood of needing a second vehicle.
Either way, an EV should be fine. Depending on cost, I might stick with a small, used ICE this time, because I don’t need much. But I’m not at that point quite yet, so maybe things will change by the time I’m ready.
Repairability is a big one for reasons not to get a new ev for me
Why would you think EVs are not repairable?
Because third party repairs are often unavailable or void the warranty. Cars are becoming a subscription service to dealerships.
Because third party repairs are often unavailable or void the warranty
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No they don’t. Cars have long since had regulations allowing for third party repairs.
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Why would you take to a third party if you’re under warranty?
Cars are becoming a subscription service to dealerships.
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What kind of subscription allows you to repair the car?
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This is not exclusive to EVs.
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Because they are relatively new in the automotive world. I can take my '08 CRV to just about any auto parts store in America and get just about any part I need (or take it to about any third party repair shop with the same results). Good luck doing that with most EVs especially Teslas. Tesla is the most egregious example as they are anti right to repair and have seemed to take a page out of Apple’s book as far as locking down their supply chain for parts.
Hopefully this will get better with time as third party shops have time to acclimate themselves and their technicians to EV architecture, and EV-specific parts become more available. Though the latter I feel is highly dependent on manufacturers not trying to turn EVs into phones in terms of repairability/serviceability.
In the meantime, as an average Joe without a lot of money, I really like the idea of keeping my relatively low cost older ICE vehicles because if shit hits the fan, if I can’t fix it relatively cheaply, there will likely be multiple shops that can without it costing me an arm and a leg and/or taking weeks or months to wait on the manufacturer to supply the parts needed.
I can take my '08 CRV to just about any auto parts store in America and get just about any part I need
Again, why would you think EVs are different?
Hopefully this will get better with time as third party shops have time to acclimate themselves and their technicians to EV architecture
Third party shops are not manufacturing parts.
If your wanna talk about Teslas, I’ll agree. If you wanna talk about “new cars” I’ll agree again. But none of this is exclusive specifically to EVs.
As a EV owner I don’t worry about range that much but I’m constantly infuriated by the shitty charging experience. Charging at home is great but road trips are a constant pain in the ass. Let’s face it, most people are not interested in switching to EV at all and will find an excuse until ICE cars are banned (I’m looking at you people with two family cars and private garage). You want to convince the people actually thinking about it? Make charging work.
Plenty of people with two family and private garages have EVs, they get level 2 chargers or something like that hooked up for charging at home. You’re right about the charging experience though, it seems to me that too many people have EVs but not enough public garages or outside parking spaces have chargers.
What I mean is that there’s nothing more we can do to sell an EV to a family like this. Sure, lots of people already own EVs but many will not buy and EV even if they are in the perfect situation to get one. This people will only get an EV when ICE cars are gone.
Yeah my thoughts exactly. My comment was downvoted but said something similar. It’s all about charging being too slow, generally incompatible, and there not being enough of them. Once the infrastructure is fixed, acceptance will be much higher. There are so many things to like about EVs. Cheaper maintenance, cheaper operating costs, quieter, less pollution, much simpler design so less likely to break, better handling due to lower center of mass (generally), less consumables (like brakes … thanks regenerative braking), and darnit just plain fun to drive.
The experience is pretty fine at the Tesla superchargers
Yes but we all know what the issues with Tesla are.
I have to disagree, people like you described are not aware of the charging infrastructure app ridden sign up and reliability bullshit. Fixing that isn’t going to make Karen who’s never owned an EV buy one.
Your suggestion will only help people who already own an EV and understand the struggle.
You guys are allowed to leave work?
Switching to an EV is not “free”. You have to do some research, learn some new things and gain a bit of experience. Some people (for example the elderly but also stupid people) will have real issues adapting to new infrastructure. Even more people are simply to lazy to bother, will always see the effort required to switch to an EV as completely unnecessary and will complain loudly when forced to do it. The best option would be probably to wait for “EV first” generations of drivers to simply replace the current ones but we don’t have time for it. Other option would be to make the switch completely painless (imagine having a charging plug right next to the gasoline dispenser on every gas station, simply choose from diesel, gas or electric) but we’re currently very very far away from this dream. So yeah, the only option is to force people slowly to make the effort and at the same time work on making it easy enough so they don’t revolt.
Ehhh. For the range-anxious until charging infra catches up, there can be PHEVs.
I’ve been excited to have my next vehicle be a BEV for a while now, but having rented a Tesla while on vacation in Michigan (where the infra wasn’t exactly good for it) I understand why people might have reservations about jumping in with both feet. Also now that I’ve interacted with the vehicles and got a better idea of Tesla as a company, I won’t be buying one.
For the moment, given my use cases (I periodically have to drive between western WA and central UT) my next vehicle will likely be a PHEV unless there are real breakthroughs in EVs (fuel cells? swappable battery standards?) or charging infra where I need it.
I mean, worst case, just buy and bring a gas generator with you if you think you are going to be reaching those limits. With an EV, anyone can have a plug-in hybrid (albeit much less convenient).
I read the article and clicked through their own reporting on range anxiety: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/07/16/is-range-anxiety-really-worth-all-the-angst/
According to data from the US Department of Transportation, 95.1% of trips taken in personal vehicles are less than 31 miles; almost 60% of all trips are less than 6 miles. In total, the average US driver only covers about 37 miles per day.
it seems to me that this screams out for better shared transportation - If I’m going less than 6 miles, I’d much prefer an Uber or easy subway ride or the like to owning a car at all. However, that’s something government would actually have to fund and do something rather than just passing rules on to other people to make happen.
That minor rant aside - I still maintain that the 37 miles per day is a commute and going out to lunch. If we actually wanted to have people change habits in a really useful way - it’d be to start incentivising / mandating telework where possible - stop all the unnecessary car traffic of any kind. You know what’s more environmentally friendly than ZEV vehicles? No vehicle (use).
That all said - most people I know buy vehicles to solve as close to 100% of their needs, not 95.1% - because vehicles are so expensive. The range anxiety haven’t been about the daily commute for like a decade - even the 87 mile leaf did that fine and most anyone I’ve ever talked to was perfectly OK if they had the leaf JUST to drive to work and back in the summer / nice weather. Very few people buy a car like that though, because they need to get through bad weather or carry more stuff or people or tow or …
And then there’s the all american road trip. Roughly once a month I go 180 miles one way on a quick trip to see family. They don’t have a car charger setup anywhere. I’m not at all sure if they can run an extension cord out, but then I’m on slow charging, and I also drive around while I’m there (unless I asked to use their car for all trips). I’m usually there for a couple days and come back. I have to get gas on each trip. This is not in reality if I had a leaf. If I had a more expensive car it’s do-able, but I still would be anxious till there’s more “top up” points. I go by probably 20 gas stations I notice on the trip, and there’s probably 100+ more within 2-3 miles from the route I take. I know of one charging station.
They have an answer in the article
Plan your route: PlugShare and other apps allow you to determine where chargers are located along your intended route as well as details like the hours they’re open, the cost to charge, whether it’s a public or private facility, and user reviews. It reminds me of childhood trips we took when my parents used Trip Ticks from AAA to determine best roads and attractions. Being organized makes any trip more pleasant, and being aware of possible charging stops ahead creates a sense of calm in you and your passengers.
Yes - plan you trip around your car. I mean, sure, but harkening back to needing Trip Ticks like in the early 1990s isn’t exactly a “towards the future” sort of vibe. And they’re right - a lot of it is vibe.
Limit your use of air conditioning or heat when possible: So be uncomfortable… I never think about turning on aircon or heat in my ICE car. This is a stupid “fix a perceived problem” statement.
Plan errands to intersect with available chargers Again, live your life around your car - this just is absurd. If I’m planning errands around my transportation, I ought to be able to use public transport and get better returns for the hassle - but I can’t because our public transport is shit, and also it’s probably not feasible in the vast rural areas of the US.
Stay calm, breathe deeply: According to research in the Journal of Advanced Transportation, range voltage depends on a variety of factors, including emotional type, age, and driving experience, and these factors may influence how susceptible you are to range anxiety.
Yes, get some therapy and Xanax and you too can love the EV.
Ok, but ranting about the sheer stupidity and patronizing nature of the article around range anxiety over - back to the road trip. Many people like to drive to their vacations to save money, especially if they have 3+ people going and would have to also rent a car at the other end of a flight. My next trip is a 900 mile trip over 2 days. With ICE I literally just put it in my GPS and go - no issues because I can stop and get gas ANYWHERE. We’re just NOT THERE yet with chargers, and even with superchargers, we’re talking going from a 10 minute break to get gas, grab a snack and use the restroom to more like 30 minutes waiting for the car. I don’t have issues with planning lunch or dinner around that, IF I could be sure there was a super charger where it makes sense to break.
The thing that’s stupid is it’s not “range anxiety” really, I have to worry about getting gas and finding a gas station. We just have gas stations already built out and getting gas is a 5 minute process to get another 360+ miles of range. If the charging was close to that to add 360+ miles of range, no one would blink an eye, but instead, it’s 30 minutes to add maybe 100 miles of range - which leads to making trips take much longer in many cases. The other anxiety inducing thing is if you run out of gas, AAA can bring you 2 gallons to get you to a station. I haven’t heard about the equivalent for EVs yet.
The important thing is - talking down to people isn’t going to get them to listen to you. Telling people they shouldn’t worry about their yearly or more often road trips because normally they’re driving to work and back isn’t a great sales pitch really. If I have to rent an ICE car 2 times a year for a road trip, that’s at least $1,000 each time, which itself pays for a lot of gas, or 3 new car payments (for most people). It doesn’t make people think EVs are cheaper.
Me feeling this way is a problem, because I do think EVs are a good thing, and I really want one, but not for massively more than a direct replacement of my existing ICE car, and not if I have to also maintain an ICE car for trips. One car is cheaper than two to keep going no matter how frugal the second car is.
Modern EVs charge in less than 15 minutes so… it’s really not longer than a gas stop, at least not in any situation I’ve been in and I own two gas vehicles and an ev. Like I literally get 200+ miles of range in 15 minutes. Your numbers are just way way way off.
And what in the world are you talking about. 1000 to rent a car two times a year? Where the fuck are you renting from?
I’m sorry but you’re just really really really misinformed here. There are plenty of aaa charging services if you get stuck, but you’re not gonna get stuck cuz EVs are good about letting you know if you’re gonna be in trouble.
I don’t really want to spend the time to refute every point in your post, just seriously, go try renting a modem ev (non-American, American EVs are terrible)
I only know what people tell me about EVs, I’ve never had one. You’re the first and only person to claim I can charge an EV in 15 minutes. Where can I do that?
The last time I rented a car was in the UK about 2 months ago. It was for exactly 1 week, which is actually a little light for most of my trips in the US, and cost about 1000 GBP before insurance for an automatic (I don’t drive stick). In the US, when I’ve looked up car rentals just now, a fullsize SUV for my road trip coming up, return to the same place, was 1,303.99 before insurance. A Midsize that we’d just squeeze into like my owned Outback was $770 before insurance (on Kyak.com - feel free to point me to better places to search). I’d say that’s averaging $1,000.
I’m aware I didn’t specify the ICE cars I’m talking about in this post, that was in another one. I’ll admit, if I was going to want a Tesla 3 size car (which doesn’t work for me for many other reasons), I could rent an ICE for more like $540 before insurance. The reason a Tesla3 size car doesn’t work is my road trips are 3-5 people, with luggage for a week or more, plus their hobby large backpacks. We also have a crosstrek and we literally packed it full for 3 people, and the Outback was uncomfortably full with 5 people. So I’d figure I’d need the cargo capacity of a full SUV for 5 and midsize SUV for 3.
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Household transport is a fraction of a fraction of the states emissions. But hey that cost of living sure is going through the roof, better double the cost of cars to shift internal combustion to remote combustion.
Depending on the EV, the total cost of ownership is cheaper than a comparable ICE vehicle (due to fuel savings, and being mechanically simpler to maintain and repair). I’m pretty sure personal vehicles are the largest source of personal CO2 emissions, since it takes an EV 34kwh to travel 100 miles, and ICE vehicles are 4x less efficient. Pretty sure that would produce more CO2 than a typical household’s heating and cooling.
It means nothing.Unless you’re offering to help pay the difference?.
I’m not sure you understood what I wrote. EVs can pay their own difference. Depending on where you live (what your gasoline and electricity costs are), an EV can save $10,000+ in fuel over their lifespans, making some EVs cheaper than comparable ICE vehicles. I.E. you can get a new Chevy Bolt for $27k, then you’d save $10k on fuel over its lifetime. $17k is cheaper than a comparable car. I believe you’d also get a $7.5k tax credit.
Jesus christ you think everyone is on 6 figure salaries
??? The cheapest new vehicle I’ve seen is $18k. If you’re talking about used vehicles, you can get used EVs even cheaper since they tend to lose value faster. I just checked autotrader, and they have a Leaf with only 40k miles for $9k. You’re going to have a hard time finding a decent vehicle of any kind under $5k. I really don’t understand what kind of point you’re trying to argue about. Yes, vehicles are expensive, but many people need one. I spent most of my life only being able to afford vehicles that barely ran, and repairing them myself (often improvising without having the correct tools).
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How about trains? Americans are too used to their cars for those long-range trips. Make them unnecessary. Build out the infrastructure. Have your car for local trips, switch to trains for anything else.
Ideally I’d like trains for local trips and high speed rail for longer distances. I’d prefer to not own or use a car at all but most cities would have to be torn down and rebuilt to achieve this.
Same, but tearing down and rebuilding cities is a feature, not a bug. Well, except for the carbon emissions involved in doing that.
How about lithium fires burning down peoples houses then?
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Probably be more efficient to just have a towable battery you charge ahead of time.
It’s a massive waste of energy. What does a good diesel generator have, like 20% energy efficiency? Not taking into account that you’re wasting a lot energy for towing it.
It would also have to be massive.
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Serious Question: Why can’t we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?
Lets work through some back-of-the-napkin math here.
Lets say the average speed you’re looking to take on your road trip is 50MPH. For that discharge rate you’d need to be able to charge at 50MPH to keep up. That would put you at a charging requirement of 50kw.
Here is a picture of a 50kw towable generator:
This isn’t even any of the additional gear needed for DC rectification and power management needed to interface with NACS or CCS.
and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.
You can see why this idea doesn’t really work then.
I’m going to need to see your work for the 50mph to 50kw conversion.
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Also one is a force while the other is a speed. You’d need a lot of assumptions to go from one number to another single number.
Googling a rough average returned 0.346 kwh/mile for electric cars between 2000 and 2022 (wide range, im aware). Traveling at 50MPH, you go 50 miles in 1 hour (assume you’re already going 50, and stay at that speed). So you’d use [0.346KWh/mile] *[50 miles/hour] = [17.3 KW] per hour @ 50 MPH
One of the problems is that air resistance increases at a squared rate vs velocity, so that average is only really accurate at one specific speed (which tbf might actually be 50mph). But this is a lot more accurate than just replacing “mph” with “kw” lol.
My biggest red flag was the picture of a commercial-grade-looking generator when plug in hybrids can fit the generator plus electric motor, battery, AC, and all the other stuff needed under the hood.
