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Once again, the non-revisionist non-reformist internationalist socialist position is to not take sides in a conventional inter-imperialist (read inter-capitalist) war.
Ukraine de facto acts as the proxy of the West, while Russia is a regional imperialist power.
Both are capitalist governments fighting each other over their respective interests, there is nothing proletarian about Ukraine; the international proletariat belongs to no country…Anti-colonial/liberation wars are another topic. Critical support is warranted there, even if it isn’t a proletarian movement fighting them.
All the liberals masquerading as leftists always seem to forget “No war but class war!” whenever it’s convenient for them; so please
eat your veggiesread your theory…You’re so steeped in theory and strategy that you’ve forgotten to defend the universal human right to self-determination. Ukrainians do not consent to being governed by Russia, and that is reason enough for me to side with them.
This here, is the reasoning of a rapist.
“If you don’t resist, it’ll end quicker”.
(holy fuck, and a russian flag in the bio!? Lmao)
when you choose the side of non-intervention you take the position of the oppressor. russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine. sure, they’re both capitalist regimes, but one is clearly the imperial colonizer. call me “the liberal” again if you must, but your understanding of political theory is incomplete if you don’t see Ukraine’s self defense as a war of resistance.
standing aside and letting russia win does not bring anyone closer to The Revolution. what brings us closer to liberation is supporting groups like Destroy the Lines and Sibir Corps (which the US refuses to support for being leftist russian groups) that are coordinating with Ukrainian military forces
Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine.
How do you figure? The civilians in the region that are dying are ethnic Russians who speak Russian and voted in 2014 to join Russia and are dying of the NATO backed Ukrainian policy and “defense”
Israel killed almost 10x as many civilians as Russia has in a much smaller area. That is a genocide. They are erasing the Palestinian people and culture. The Russians are not.
Russia invaded Ukraine. Just like Palestine, it it has a right to defend its sovereignty (albeit Palestine has ~80 years of a right to do this, compared to Ukraine’s ~15).
Remember that working class people are suffering from these capitalist wars. They did not choose this
Edit: Also, how is Russia’s invasion of Ukraine not imperialist?
How is it like Palestine? Did the Palestinians in Gaza vote in 2014 to join Israel like the Russians in Russian speaking Eastern Ukraine did?
“No war but class war” doesn’t mean you cannot fight or support a defensive war.
If it does, it is an irredeemably stupid position.
The non-revisionist, non-reformist, internationalist socialist position can eat dicks.
If there is an imperialist aggressor invading another country, then the MORAL position is to side against the aggressor. Because regardless of how you feel about the governments (which, fuck all governments, so what’s the point in making that distinction?), the civilians will be feeling the brunt of the war.
There is an imperialist aggressor and it is Russia.
The oblasts involved in this war want to join Russia and voted to join in 2014 after the Ukrainians kicked out the Russian friendly government. They voted to join Russia because they feared that the Ukrainian government was going to oppress them for being Russian speaking ethnic Russians. They were right, In the years between 2014 and 2022 they fought a civil war to leave Ukraine and were not allowed to and Russia intervened. Most of the people living there moved to Russia.
The only irredeemably stupid position is the person who just takes into account 2022 and after and not looking at the whole picture. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
Sorry, I can’t hear you over your staunch adherence to revisionism in favor of authoritarian imperialist powers masquerading as socialist or communist.
So…pro-Russia
Amazingly, you can also be against a country *violently and illegally invading another one!
Ukraine support doesn’t bother me, that’s not splitting anyone here. Palestinian support, when it’s fervent enough to make Dems vote against Dem candidates, now we have a problem. Domestic issues, when they involve a fascist takeover, are simply more pressing than 70-year-old foreign policy, even if it does need fixing… it has for a long time. We won’t be able to get there if we’re an authoritarian hellhole.
So pro Ukraine then.
Removed by mod
Please clarify whether you forgot to put a /s there
‘I stand with the Russian people against Putin and the oligarchs, bring your kids home with a quick stop in Moscow. I know damn well some of you fuckers remember how to be communist’ might beat it out.
I’d agree that the current political system of Ukraine is better for the workers there, however the is a conflict caused by the existence of capitalist nations. The soldiers dying wouldn’t fight if they weren’t forced to by their nations. Ukraine should be supported, but only in the sense of supporting a capitalist to get rid of the aristocracy
This was has a lot more to do with imperial domination than capitalism, and framing it as being caused by “capitalist nations” rather than “one specific imperialist warmonger, the invader” is questionable at best.
This is largely, though as you acknowledge not entirely, not a war fought over workers’ rights so much as the right of a sovereign people to choose their future.
Bad phrasing on my part. Russia obviously started this war, however it can only come to this because Ukraine and Russia exist as separate antagonistic nations and not because the people living in these regions hate each other so much that they have to go to war with each other. Russia shouldn’t impose a future on the Ukrainian people and they should be supported in defending their ability to do so, however the Ukrainian government shouldn’t be equated with the future Ukrainians want, it’s still a (partially) corrupt, capitalist government.
ah yeah that checks out, fully agree.
Also in the very basic sense that they’re defending their homes from an invader.
I don’t want this to devolve into a long discussion about democracy in Ukraine, but even though Ukrainian soldiers might be defending their homes, Ukraine as a nation is defending it’s political system. If Ukraine surrendered immediately some people would still have been killed, some houses destroyed and some private property taken over by Russian oligarchs, but Putin wouldn’t have taken every single home of Ukrainian citizens. The Russian soldiers attacking the Ukrainian homes aren’t doing this because they want the houses but because they are forced, or at least brainwashed to do so because the Russian state wants control of Ukraine.
The main support should be of the Ukrainian and Russian people suffering from war, secondary that of Ukraine as a state as it’s current political system is better for it’s people than Russia’s.
Edit: Ukrainian soldiers aren’t actually actually able to attack the people that want Ukraine to be invaded (Putin), the treaties they signed with the western nations to get support forbids them from attacking targets on Russian territory, meaning they have to defend them against their invaders meatshields not against the invaders
I’m afraid there are a lot of historical examples of how things can go very wrong inside the country if the govt doesn’t like some specific group. So even ceding the whole country and becoming a part of
the empireRussia might not have helped muchHow do you explain Bucha or Mariupol?
ah, yes, brainwashed soldiers have never done war crimes either. case in point: the united states.
I’m confused, here you’re saying brainwashed soldiers but down below you’re saying that war crimes can only be committed by people that are inherently evil. How can it be both?
No, that wasn’t what I said, you just don’t read very well.
And I didn’t say they were brainwashed, the person above me did, and I repeated their argument to show how stupid it was.
You’re not good at this, please don’t try again.
Never claimed they don’t. The Russian propaganda commonly demonizes and dehumanizes Ukrainian(-soldier)s. They also like to pretend that they are actually doing this for the Ukrainian people (like the US). Do you think that Russian soldiers commit war crimes because they are inherently evil?
Do you think that Russian soldiers commit war crimes because they are inherently evil?
yes, anyone who commits a war crime is an inherently evil person. a normal person, even during war, does not torture or rape someone. don’t try the nazi defense, that’s bullshit and you know it. if you have the choice of raping and murdering civilians, or being shot for refusing orders, and you choose to rape and murder, you don’t get a pass for just following orders. you’re still a rapist and murderer. you’re still evil.
That’s a dangerously naive mindset. Anyone can be tricked into committing war crimes. It isn’t just certain groups that are inherently susceptible. Normal people are very capable of atrocities. Fascism and of course capitalism specialize in incentivizing said atrocities.
Let’s agree to disagree. We clearly have very different ideas on human nature and I don’t think either of us is an adequately educated physiological professional to hold a sensicle disscusion on the topic
Do you honestly think people wouldn’t fight to defend their country if not for capitalism?
I think people wouldn’t fight over countries if there weren’t any states
Ok, fine, but do you think people wouldn’t fight to protect themselves and their friends?
But why are they and their friends being attacked? Are those attacking them doing it because they just don’t like them or because they are being told to by a state?
Who cares why, there’s 10 million reasons why.
10 million reasons for one person to kill another maybe, but 10 million reasons for hundreds of thousands of people to fight each other with billions of dollars of weapons that aren’t created by states? I don’t think so, but if you know one please tell me. If you’re asking if I think there wouldn’t be any violence at all in communist or similar society, then no I don’t, but I think none at this scale
Ok John Lennon
We count that as ukraine
I would support Ukraine if Ukraine didn’t forcefully kidnap it’s own citizens to force them to die for their country either they want to or not.
The way I see it, it’s just two oppressive elites enslaving the powerless.
Ukraine is pro-Israel just as much as the US govt… so fuck Ukraine, as for Russians… Stay in your country, you act like assholes to all of your neighbors. Love to the good people that exist in all of these nations.
No war but a class war.
So he supports Victor Von Doom?
pro-ukraine? nah, I’m anti-homophobic imperialist dictatorship.
I present to you: the single-issue voter
Your mad because I didn’t
checks notes
Vote for Russia last November. No, as much as it pained me, I voted for Harris.
Did that sound good in your head when you wrote it?
Sorry, it was just a silly throwaway joke about an example of single-issue voter. Genuinely didn’t mean for you to take it personally…
oh, in that case, I apologize. I didn’t pick up on that at all and that’s my fault.
