Veganism is a luxury of modern times and certain social economic circles. Bless people for being able to keep to it. Personally I can’t, not because I love murdering innocent animals but feeding myself and a family is a complex task with the items I have in my area and the time I have.
I was able to do meatless days more often when I had a market down the road and didn’t have many mouths to feed, but now I’ve moved and the local produce is complete garbage and I have to put my effort into other items into the day that are unfortunately not meal prep.
This is not me saying “Veganism bad” this is saying you can’t assume everyone has the same situations you do. Change things from the top, not beat up people just trying to make it day to day.
It’s wild that these people are so aggressive to anyone who can’t afford their crazy expensive and nutritionally deficient diet.
They have infinitely more empathy for animals than they do fellow humans. If they had any empathy for people they’d see how classist their belief system is.
You act like processed foods aren’t the main staple in most American diets.
The vast majority of processed foods are meat based.
Saying “just eat less processed foods” shows classist bias because it demonstrates an absolute ignorance as to why people eat this shit in the first place.
I know america is in a really bad spot, and has been for a long time really. In my personal experience as a vegetarian in the uk, as long as you stick with vegetable alternatives rather than fake meats, you can keep meals pretty fairly priced. I can’t comment on how it is over there however, other than recognising that you lot are going through hell right now.
Probably could’ve been more civil with you beginning there, I’m just so used to seeing other veggie/vegan people get a lot of shit for a loud minority, ive also had my share of shit from people around me, and I get defensive when I see it now.
In my experience, veggie food can be tasty as all hell and cheap if youre careful. Nutritional deficiencies havent been a noticeable problem for me other than being told to make sure I have enough protein to build muscle but that was for medical issue unrelated. Could be that I’m just unaware of it though.
I think saying vegans lack empathy is very reductive; I’m sure there is probably vegans who are like that, ive met some lovely vegetarians/vegans Ive also met some vegans that I thought were behaving disgustingly. Just because someone is vegan, doesnt mean they are a dickhead, but the same goes for people who eat meat, I have nothing against people eating meat, my initial reasons for going vegetarian actually had nothing to do with the meat industry.
Culture wars like this just serve to distract from the class war, and that should be what we’re fighting, if someone is being shitty, call them out for being shitty, and accept that they are shitty, dont then ascribe that shittyness to random people. Just the act of being vegan/vegetarian shouldn’t be a problem.
Plenty of vegans in India for centuries, not luxurious or modern. You can say that being vegan is hard in modern meat-oriented society, but then turn your critique towards the system and not towards the people telling you to go vegan. And I say this as a non-vegan.
You’re thinking of vegetarians, and it’s more commonly practiced by those who can afford to. Upper-class vegetarians fought to prevent eggs being given to impoverished school children in India.
There earliest proponent of veganism listed on Wikipedia is Abu al-Ala al-Ma’arri, roughly one thousand years ago. According to their source:
“[Al-Maʿarri’s] diet was extremely frugal, consisting chiefly of lentils, with figs for sweet; and, very unusually for a Muslim, he was not only a vegetarian, but a vegan who abstained from meat, fish, dairy products, eggs, and honey, because he did not want to kill or hurt animals, or deprive them of their food.”
Also:
Al-Ma’arri held an antinatalist outlook, in line with his general pessimism, suggesting that children should not be born to spare them of the pains and suffering of life.
Speaking locally to me, chicken is half the price per gram of protein compared to vegan proteins. It might be different if I could digest wheat. Beans are closest in price, but I can’t physically consume enough beans for that to work alone. Vegan options need to be subsidized to encourage wider adoption.
Regarding vegetarianism specifically, anyone who thinks they aren’t hurting animals by consuming commercial eggs and dairy are kidding themselves. Chicken is also (again, local to me) cheaper than dairy-based proteins. (Not sure about the cost of eggs since I can’t digest those either.)
I think it’s accurate to say that meat is a luxury in the sense that we collectively are paying environmental and ethical costs for the farming industry.
e: Another consideration is the support of healthcare providers. Only an omnivorous diet is supported by the Swedish healthcare system. I was just in the hospital and had no option for protein other than pork and yogurt. When attempting to meet my dietary needs on a vegan diet, I have received no professional help.
I think it’s accurate to say that meat is a luxury in the sense that we collectively are paying environmental and ethical costs for the farming industry.
I’d like to see us factor in the bio-availability of nutrients from both plant and animal sources when considering the costs, as well.
Yes it is, sometimes, based on the criteria in the post you are replying to.
They even give examples of why this is and point out not everyone has the same circumstances you , but you still somehow read it as your own personal position being the only correct one.
To be clear, that’s vegetarianism, not vegetables.
Access and “cost effectiveness to nutrition ratios” are skewed towards meat in some places, especially when looked at from a socio-economic point of view.
Per calorie, meat or “meat” can be cheaper, especially when you factor in time/effort taken for purchase, storage, prep and cooking.
That’s almost certainly because of the focus on meat production in some countries and you could argue that it shouldn’t be that way, but that’s a different conversation.
That’s almost certainly because of the focus on meat production in some countries and you could argue that it shouldn’t be that way, but that’s a different conversation.
That is, in fact, this conversation. That’s what I mean by “we need to start acting like it”.
If you want to change conversations then indicate that that is what’s happening , because the post you are replying to clearly stated the context in which that statement was made.
If you want to reply to that statement in an entirely different context and then don’t mention that that is happening you’re going to get confusion.
There is no change of context. Comment thread OP stated that vegetarianism is a luxury of modern times, something patently counterfactual. She specifically mentions supply chain issues such as the local availability of produce and economic concerns over the cost of meat vs. vegetables. We have been talking about supply, demand, and economic feasibility this whole time.
There is no world in which a person’s daily intake of protein is cheaper to produce in meat than in grains and legumes. That it is cheaper to purchase is what OP is commenting on and I am decrying as unsustainable.
You have to be doing it on purpose at this point, nobody accidentally misses the context with that amount of pinpoint accuracy.
You’re even including partial sentences and specifically leaving out the part that gives the context.
OK so I’ll do this one line by line and then you’re on your own.
There is no change of context. Comment thread OP stated that vegetarianism is a luxury of modern times, something patently counterfactual.
The whole line was
Veganism is a luxury of modern times and certain social economic circles.
As for “patently counterfactual” that’s a strong phrase for zero supporting arguments.
She specifically mentions supply chain issues such as the local availability of produce and economic concerns over the cost of meat vs. vegetables.
Yes, as a supporting argument that the current conditions mean that it’s not universally economically viable to subsist on vegetables.
We have been talking about supply, demand, and economic feasibility this whole time.
It was mentioned yes, but in the context of current conditions.
I’ll simplify for you.
As things currently are it is not always economically viable to subsist on vegetables alone.
There was no argument that it isn’t possible for the world to get to a point where this is possible, just that it’s not the current world.
Do you know what the word is for an item that is possible to obtain with an expenditure of wealth, while a less costly viable alternative exists?
There is no world in which a person’s daily intake of protein is cheaper to produce in meat than in grains and legumes. That it is cheaper to purchase is what OP is commenting on and I am decrying as unsustainable.
No, they describe many reasons aside from just the purchase price, if you haven’t seen them i suggest you back and re-read the post, it’s like 3 small paragraphs.
In case you are still struggling. I’ll bullet point them for you.
Purchase price
Availability
Quality
Accessibility
Opportunity/Prep Time Cost
Overall your replies imply a lack of ability to empathize with another persons circumstances and not a small amount of (let them eat cake) entitlement.
it’s great that you are in a financial situation, physical location and with enough free time to make vegetarianism viable.
Declaring that it’s not possible to be in a situation worse than the one you are in, especially when realistic potential reasons for the differences are offered, is tone-deaf and frankly disgusting.
I’m done with this, if you can’t figure it out from the above that’s a you problem, and i suppose anyone who has to deal with you on a regular basis.
I totally understand why the word luxury can sound off here. I just meant that being vegan or vegetarian often takes extra time, knowledge, and access. Things that aren’t always easy for everyone.
I think it’s great when people can make it work, but not everyone has the same options or support. It’s less about right or wrong choices and more about recognizing that everyone’s circumstances are different.
I’m trying to be empathetic, because it really feels like lashing out at the wrong targets here. Hopefully we can agree society is the problem, not the people in the society who can’t access these choices.
Veganism is a luxury of modern times and certain social economic circles. Bless people for being able to keep to it. Personally I can’t, not because I love murdering innocent animals but feeding myself and a family is a complex task with the items I have in my area and the time I have.
I was able to do meatless days more often when I had a market down the road and didn’t have many mouths to feed, but now I’ve moved and the local produce is complete garbage and I have to put my effort into other items into the day that are unfortunately not meal prep.
This is not me saying “Veganism bad” this is saying you can’t assume everyone has the same situations you do. Change things from the top, not beat up people just trying to make it day to day.
Vegan almost always = privileged and preachy
It’s wild that these people are so aggressive to anyone who can’t afford their crazy expensive and nutritionally deficient diet.
They have infinitely more empathy for animals than they do fellow humans. If they had any empathy for people they’d see how classist their belief system is.
Where are you living that vegetables are more expensive than meat??
You act like processed foods aren’t the main staple in most American diets.
The vast majority of processed foods are meat based.
Saying “just eat less processed foods” shows classist bias because it demonstrates an absolute ignorance as to why people eat this shit in the first place.
Ah, America. What a shithole
Why don’t you try saying something relevant? Can’t think of any good points?
Or do you just want to prove my point about lacking empathy?
I know america is in a really bad spot, and has been for a long time really. In my personal experience as a vegetarian in the uk, as long as you stick with vegetable alternatives rather than fake meats, you can keep meals pretty fairly priced. I can’t comment on how it is over there however, other than recognising that you lot are going through hell right now.
Probably could’ve been more civil with you beginning there, I’m just so used to seeing other veggie/vegan people get a lot of shit for a loud minority, ive also had my share of shit from people around me, and I get defensive when I see it now.
In my experience, veggie food can be tasty as all hell and cheap if youre careful. Nutritional deficiencies havent been a noticeable problem for me other than being told to make sure I have enough protein to build muscle but that was for medical issue unrelated. Could be that I’m just unaware of it though.
I think saying vegans lack empathy is very reductive; I’m sure there is probably vegans who are like that, ive met some lovely vegetarians/vegans Ive also met some vegans that I thought were behaving disgustingly. Just because someone is vegan, doesnt mean they are a dickhead, but the same goes for people who eat meat, I have nothing against people eating meat, my initial reasons for going vegetarian actually had nothing to do with the meat industry.
Culture wars like this just serve to distract from the class war, and that should be what we’re fighting, if someone is being shitty, call them out for being shitty, and accept that they are shitty, dont then ascribe that shittyness to random people. Just the act of being vegan/vegetarian shouldn’t be a problem.
Based response
Plenty of vegans in India for centuries, not luxurious or modern. You can say that being vegan is hard in modern meat-oriented society, but then turn your critique towards the system and not towards the people telling you to go vegan. And I say this as a non-vegan.
You’re thinking of vegetarians, and it’s more commonly practiced by those who can afford to. Upper-class vegetarians fought to prevent eggs being given to impoverished school children in India.
veganism is a philosophy, and has been around less than one hundred years
There earliest proponent of veganism listed on Wikipedia is Abu al-Ala al-Ma’arri, roughly one thousand years ago. According to their source:
Also:
I should read this guy’s work.
veganism as a term didn’t exist until the 1940s, and the philosophy is not the same as what al-ma’arri advocated.
Vegetarianism is a luxury? Meat is a luxury, and we need to start acting like it.
Speaking locally to me, chicken is half the price per gram of protein compared to vegan proteins. It might be different if I could digest wheat. Beans are closest in price, but I can’t physically consume enough beans for that to work alone. Vegan options need to be subsidized to encourage wider adoption.
Regarding vegetarianism specifically, anyone who thinks they aren’t hurting animals by consuming commercial eggs and dairy are kidding themselves. Chicken is also (again, local to me) cheaper than dairy-based proteins. (Not sure about the cost of eggs since I can’t digest those either.)
I think it’s accurate to say that meat is a luxury in the sense that we collectively are paying environmental and ethical costs for the farming industry.
e: Another consideration is the support of healthcare providers. Only an omnivorous diet is supported by the Swedish healthcare system. I was just in the hospital and had no option for protein other than pork and yogurt. When attempting to meet my dietary needs on a vegan diet, I have received no professional help.
I’d like to see us factor in the bio-availability of nutrients from both plant and animal sources when considering the costs, as well.
Yes it is, sometimes, based on the criteria in the post you are replying to.
They even give examples of why this is and point out not everyone has the same circumstances you , but you still somehow read it as your own personal position being the only correct one.
To be clear, that’s vegetarianism, not vegetables.
Access and “cost effectiveness to nutrition ratios” are skewed towards meat in some places, especially when looked at from a socio-economic point of view.
Per calorie, meat or “meat” can be cheaper, especially when you factor in time/effort taken for purchase, storage, prep and cooking.
That’s almost certainly because of the focus on meat production in some countries and you could argue that it shouldn’t be that way, but that’s a different conversation.
That is, in fact, this conversation. That’s what I mean by “we need to start acting like it”.
If you want to change conversations then indicate that that is what’s happening , because the post you are replying to clearly stated the context in which that statement was made.
If you want to reply to that statement in an entirely different context and then don’t mention that that is happening you’re going to get confusion.
There is no change of context. Comment thread OP stated that vegetarianism is a luxury of modern times, something patently counterfactual. She specifically mentions supply chain issues such as the local availability of produce and economic concerns over the cost of meat vs. vegetables. We have been talking about supply, demand, and economic feasibility this whole time.
There is no world in which a person’s daily intake of protein is cheaper to produce in meat than in grains and legumes. That it is cheaper to purchase is what OP is commenting on and I am decrying as unsustainable.
You have to be doing it on purpose at this point, nobody accidentally misses the context with that amount of pinpoint accuracy.
You’re even including partial sentences and specifically leaving out the part that gives the context.
OK so I’ll do this one line by line and then you’re on your own.
The whole line was
As for “patently counterfactual” that’s a strong phrase for zero supporting arguments.
Yes, as a supporting argument that the current conditions mean that it’s not universally economically viable to subsist on vegetables.
It was mentioned yes, but in the context of current conditions.
I’ll simplify for you.
As things currently are it is not always economically viable to subsist on vegetables alone.
There was no argument that it isn’t possible for the world to get to a point where this is possible, just that it’s not the current world.
Do you know what the word is for an item that is possible to obtain with an expenditure of wealth, while a less costly viable alternative exists?
No, they describe many reasons aside from just the purchase price, if you haven’t seen them i suggest you back and re-read the post, it’s like 3 small paragraphs.
In case you are still struggling. I’ll bullet point them for you.
Overall your replies imply a lack of ability to empathize with another persons circumstances and not a small amount of (let them eat cake) entitlement.
it’s great that you are in a financial situation, physical location and with enough free time to make vegetarianism viable.
Declaring that it’s not possible to be in a situation worse than the one you are in, especially when realistic potential reasons for the differences are offered, is tone-deaf and frankly disgusting.
I’m done with this, if you can’t figure it out from the above that’s a you problem, and i suppose anyone who has to deal with you on a regular basis.
I totally understand why the word luxury can sound off here. I just meant that being vegan or vegetarian often takes extra time, knowledge, and access. Things that aren’t always easy for everyone.
I think it’s great when people can make it work, but not everyone has the same options or support. It’s less about right or wrong choices and more about recognizing that everyone’s circumstances are different.
I’m trying to be empathetic, because it really feels like lashing out at the wrong targets here. Hopefully we can agree society is the problem, not the people in the society who can’t access these choices.
Agreed