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- cross-posted to:
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I don’t like the precedent that Collective Shout set, but this is a VERY positive side effect. Love to see it.
I don’t care about porn games, but:
The fact MasterCard, Visa, and PayPal can censor lawful content is problematic, to say the least.
This has been a thing since at least 2010 when it happened to WikiLeaks.
see also: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/congress-escalates-pressure-on-tech
Ridiculous on their part.
With crypto going more and more mainstream, it won’t be long before another payment system shows up and starts competing against Visa/MC and Paypal.
They are opening up a lane for a competitor to fill a fairly large gap.
First line of the bitcoin whitepaper deals with this lol.
Start using monero
Could this be some kind of tactic to manipulate the crypto market?
These are the people whose business depends on the USD existing so maybe but it’d be stupid
There’s way more direct ways to manipulate the crypto market than whatever this would be.
Agreed… but, they can do it because people have been deeply irresponsible with how they themselves have related to the industry, driving the view that it’s necessary in decision making circles.
I don’t think it’s just a matter of personal responsibility; it’s part of the socio-economic system, whoever controls the capital can force others depending on it to do things they don’t want to. In this case PP/MC/Visa forcing itch.io.
Right, that’s why they CAN do it, but I’m talking about why they WANT to do it. Basically people have become so insanely over saturated with porn in their own lives, we’ve literally just had to endure an entire decade of perverts making their own politics about almost nothing other than their sexual perversions.
So really, either man the fuck up and actually prove to people that those who choose to live as you do aren’t less than worthless shit disturbers, or recognize that you have a problem and give it up. You can choose which one.
So really, either man the fuck up and actually prove to people that those who choose to live as you do aren’t less than worthless shit disturbers, or recognize that you have a problem and give it up. You can choose which one.
I don’t see why I’d have to prove anything to some random payment providers. Their job is to handle my payment for any legal purpose, not to morally judge me because some conservative organization from the other side of the world told them to.
And that attitude is exactly why the progressive movement is collapsing around you. I’m not talking about what you personally are into, I’m talking about the entitlement of assholes who are so perverted that they think they are OWED the delivery of pornography through public spaces. Get a fucking grip and people might take you seriously again.
People are entitled to equality in service. Porn is no more illegal then alcohol. If you can go to a grocery store and buy a bottle of whiskey on credit, then why should porn be treated any different?
Dude. Kids aren’t being delivered alcohol.
Get a fucking grip.
That’s up to government regulations and something that people can vote on - not something the payment processor can suddenly control and block
Right, that’s why they CAN do it, but I’m talking about why they WANT to do it.
The reason why PP/MC/Visa “want” to do this has zero to do with “porn saturation” or whatever. It’s basically “brand management”; they’re seeing servicing sites with specific types of adult content as “brand damage”, so they pressure those sites to not do it. That’s it; if they believed the opposite they’d gladly force itch io to show a dick in the front page.
In turn, the reason Collective Shout is pressuring PP/MC/Visa through “brand damage” mostly boils down to conservative babble. Check this, regarding the group’s founder and take your own conclusions.
What the fuck are you even talking about? I cant tell if youre defending this shit, or having some weird view where you think youre against it. Either way, eww.
This person is also a racist. Not worth talking to.
I’m talking about why they WANT to do it.
Hm… Looks to me like you’re making excuses for a group of crazy anti-LGBTQ evangelicals who are using lies and slander to police the world based on your own flawed morality.
You think Visa is run by crazy evangelicals?
That’s not why they want to do the it. They want to do it because money and power.
They meaning everybody.
And “how” did they pressure the payment processors? Pressure on central deciders or what? Spicy data on them?
And couldn’t they influence elections that way?
Go listen to the first season of the Hot Money podcast, it’ll explain it in much better detail than I’ll remember. Essentially VISA and MasterCard don’t like the reputational damage of being associated with certain types of porn. It’s not a hill they’re willing to die on. If you want your app to accept online payment you’ve got to be in line with what they find acceptable.
I find that unacceptable.
For what it’s worth I don’t think they particularly want the role either but until someone destroys the duopoly they have it’s the way it’s going to be.
man these canaries keep dropping dead for some reason, I’m not sure why we had them
I feel like I used to know but I’m getting kinda sleepy and it’s sorta hard to breathe
Not “pressure group”. Radical religious groups trying to control everything everywhere.
Transcript
nickyflowers: It would be cool if websites let you be an adult on them. The advertisers and payment processors need everything to be Family Friendly though their definitions of family and friendly are absolutely fucked. But since they’re in charge of the Internet now, no one is allowed to be an adult. TikTokers say things like “unalive” and “seggs” because they know death and sex are too adult for online. Online is for idiot babies only now because they’re easier to market to.
nickyflowers: Oh I’m sorry you’re a trans adult? Super ban. You are super banned for life. You have upset Visa’s feelings. Mastercard is throwing up in the corner. How could you do this to Google Ads?
This is so dumb. . I bet those guys actually watch the most porn.
100%
Almost invariably people like this have a crippling porn addiction and refuse to believe that they’re the ones with the problem. They delude themselves into believing that if the porn just didn’t exist that there wouldn’t be a problem anymore.
Every acccusation is a confession etc etc
Sorry for the double reply.
In the short-ish term, I think a good way to address this would be if governments across the globe had laws like “a service provider cannot refuse to provide services to a platform based on the nature of the lawful content within that platform”.
Odds are Visa/MC/PP wouldn’t even try to fight against such a law - they don’t really mind servicing itch.io, from their PoV it would be yet another customer; the problem is pressure exerted by those Protestant nutjobs in Australia, but once a law is present they can’t exert that pressure.
This law sounds good in theory, but there’s a lot of lawful content that is really undesirable (scams, spam, deepfakes, hate speech, etc.) and platforms need to be able to deal with that. The law isn’t fast or flexible enough to keep up, and every country has different (or laughable) definitions of some of these things.
The YouTube community guidelines are a pretty good overview of whatever shady shit people are trying to pull these days: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/9288567?hl=en
but there’s a lot of lawful content that is really undesirable (scams, spam, deepfakes, hate speech, etc.)
- scam - AFAIK already illegal in most of the world.
- spam - should be illegal, at least in the most egregious forms.
- deepfakes - it depends a lot on what is being done with the deepfake in question; plenty of them (like non-consensual sexualisation of someone) are either illegal or should be.
- hate speech - it targets the dignity, well-being and often the lives of marginalised groups. Should be illegal.
Are you noticing the pattern? Those are things that should be handled by a government in defence of the public interest of everyone, not by a platform in defence of private interest of its shareholders. Even if a population has weak control over its government, it’s more than it has over a corporation.
The law isn’t fast or flexible enough to keep up and every country has different (or laughable) definitions of some of these things.
This problem is not a good reason to create an even bigger problem. Like the one we’re seeing - private interest dictating what should be allowed or not in the public sphere.
And, seriously, if the problem was just porn who would give a fuck. (Okay, some people would, some wouldn’t.) The problem is that those corporations will happily target any group, any interest, any person, as soon as they deem profitable; because they have the power to do so, so porn is in this context only the canary of the mine. And this power needs to be curtailed.
But let’s say, for the sake of argument, that implementing such a wide law would be unviable. Well, focus on financial service providers then - banks, payment processors, and the likes. Problem solved.
I don’t disagree with you, but you’ve put some thought into this so maybe you can help us understand your logic and rationale more.
as soon as they deem profitable
What’s profitable about losing sales of adult games?
Also, what leverage do these groups have over banks and payment processors? If you have leverage over Visa and MasterCard, some of the most profitable companies in the world, I could imagine doing way more nefarious things than this. I just don’t get it. Some random group in Australia has leverage over Visa and MasterCard - American companies - is that what we’re saying here?
Those are things that should be handled by a government in defence of the public interest of everyone
I think you might have too much faith in government. Facebook and YouTube shouldn’t be hyper-polarizing brainwashing machines either, but here we are 20 years later and governments have done jack shit to address that. If anything, we’re going the wrong direction - Governments are seeing that and the TikTok model as tools they can have at their disposal to suppress dissent. But ironically, I think YouTube and many other platforms quietly accept that if we want to live in a somewhat harmonious society, we can’t leave it to the government to make all the rules. (eg. YouTube banning vaccine misinformation and disinformation during a public health emergency.)
On a tangent here, maybe the only potential upside from this situation with Steam is that horrifically misogynistic waifu simulators aren’t going to be 1 click away from the new Call of Duty. Seriously, Steam is just full of super gross anime shit that kids shouldn’t see, but the main audience of the platform is kids. The way Steam puts that content beside everything else is really gross and they really should get called out for that.
What’s profitable about losing sales of adult games?
From Visa/MC’s PoV the situation looks like this:
- force itch.io - lose sales associated with that content
- leave itch.io alone - lose sales associated with anyone who takes Collective Shout’s noise seriously, while Collective Shout starts smearing shit on Visa/MC by saying “they finance rape!”
Visa/MC likely determined #2 to be more than #1. In other words it’s more profitable to do #1 instead.
Also, what leverage do these groups have over banks and payment processors? […] I just don’t get it. Some random group in Australia has leverage over Visa and MasterCard - American companies - is that what we’re saying here?
It’s mostly their ability to cause brand damage (reasons people avoid your brand because they see it negatively - like #2).
Visa and MC know that, when it comes to sex, people become really irrational. They take insane troll logic seriously, even if they wouldn’t otherwise; and those religious groups like Collective Shout are really good at weaponising that irrationality. The way those alt right groups work is that you don’t even need to know about the group to repeat their talking points, and spread support to those talking points.
I think you might have too much faith in government.
I don’t. I’m picking the lesser of two evils here: a government is less worse than those megacorporations.
But ironically, I think YouTube and many other platforms quietly accept that if we want to live in a somewhat harmonious society, we can’t leave it to the government to make all the rules. (eg. YouTube banning vaccine misinformation and disinformation during a public health emergency.)
They didn’t ban vaccine misinformation “because it’s misinformation” or “because society would be better without it” (even if both things are true). Truth and morality doesn’t matter for those platforms; what matters is brand damage.
Super insightful, thanks. Didn’t think about any of that.
Whether it is this or tracking/disallowing firearms purchases, the payment processors should not be making editorial decisions on legal commerce.
If the item or service is legal in the jurisdiction, the payment processors should be on the hook for agnostically allowing the transactions. Period.
How do I start a payment processor?
Can I use it to pay for blackjack and hookers?
Yes. If it’s legal in your jurisdiction.
Research Swift or CIPS
Its the only thing I go to itch.io for.
I guess I’ll go to the F95zone instead.
