“Officials said that Israel and Egypt were prepared to let foreigners leave the Strip which is under heavy Israeli bombardment, but Hamas had refused.”
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza. I hope the international community can come together to find a way. I definitely wouldn’t leave it to Israel lol.
It probably involves with allying with the PLO or some more secular faction of Palestinians, and Egypt. But they’d need to give something to them or else no one has a reason to support them unless they have some victories they can point to.
As a retired Major-General explained on TV over here the other day, Hamas is a Insurrection Movement, which are made of 3 parts, the Political Side, the Military Side and Popular Support.
Want to destroy Hamas, destroy its popular support side.
The current indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians will never destroy it because not only does it increase the Popular Support for any Insurrection Movement against Israel, it also adds to the number of people who would join the military wing of such a movement (i.e. directly put their lives at risk), especially because for all the parroting of Israel’s “human shields” propaganda, what the people there see is Israel choosing to bomb and kill their family, so even those who detest Hamas will detest Israel much much more and with good reason.
Unless Israel is willing to commit a Nazi-sized Genocide (which I suspect its current leadership would do if they thought they could get away with, hence their talk of a “second Nakba”), the solution will never be more violence.
Israel really going for a “If there’s no witnesses, there’s no problem” approach and killing everybody.
They’re targetting and killing journalists (and were already doing so before this) and their families.
States murder journalists and their families has no other reason than to stop the truth from coming out, so taking out a couple of tens of thousand who they see as untermenschen to “tie up loose ends” is hardly going to weigh on their consciences.
They’re targetting and killing journalists (and were already doing so before this) and their families.
Well, they ran out of MSF doctors to shoot.
To stop people from going to extreme lenghts, you need to give them something to lose.
Those people lost everything, of course they will fight by any means necessary
We’ve learned that bombing only makes people more resolved to fight in every war in the 20th and 21st centuries. There’s no reason it would change now. You can’t bomb away ideas.
Uh… Did you forget Japan?
The idea that the atomic bombs directly caused the surrender of Japan is contested, actually. It’s more likely that they created an urgency in what was already looking like a losing battle. The difference in that situation is that Japan wasn’t fighting a war of resistance at any cost against the US, they were fighting as part of an alliance on one front of a world war. In that case it is very real that troops lose morale, civilian casualties become too great, and loss of military assets make victory look unlikely, and then surrender looks attractive by comparison. But I think in the case of popularly supported resistance to colonizers, that threshold is quite high - people feel quite strongly about revenge and are convinced of the justice of their cause in that situation, so the brutality of their colonizers isn’t likely to do anything other than strengthen their resolve.
Frankly, I actually think the atomic bombing and firebombing campaigns would be considered war crimes if they happened today. It’s really weird that people justify it so much by how horrible the Japanese state was at the time - tons of innocent civilians, including lots of children, died horribly, and it was 100% anticipated, and in the case of the atomic bombing, they did it twice, knowing that. You can’t justify your own actions by the crimes of your enemy.
Underrated comment that everyone should read and understand.
The Pro-Israel crowd will say it is all lies and Israel is really making good friends with all Palestinians then act all shocked that rockets keep flying from gaza at them. Bombing the shit out of Palestinians has worked SO well over the last many decades. Yet they figure ‘we just didn’t bomb hard enough’ to make them like us!
That popular support will never disappear, Hamas is using Muslim vs infidels agenda. You see, that works well to brainwash Muslims worldwide. At no point would they stop cursing Israel and Jew.
The current indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians
The only people indiscriminately bombing Palestinians are PIJ and Hamas. They spray and pray with rockets, hundreds of them have landed in Gaza.
Israel’s strikes are the most targeted fucking strikes you’ve ever seen a military do, and they actively warn the people in those buildings with everything from roof knocking to a phone call.
for all the parroting of Israel’s “human shields” propaganda, what the people there see is Israel choosing to bomb and kill their family, so even those who detest Hamas will detest Israel much much more and with good reason.
You call it propaganda, but it’s exactly what Hamas is doing, isn’t it?
When Israel calls you and tells you they’re going to bomb the building you’re in, and when, and Hamas tells you not to leave, how are you going to come away from that hating Israel more than Hamas?
When Hamas steals and hoards gasoline that it could use to run the power plant, the hospital generators, the desalination plants… when they dig up water pipes to fire as bombs… when PIJ fires a rocket that hits a hospital parking lot killing hundreds, you think they’re too stupid to follow that?
You think they don’t blame them for causing this war? They had a ceasefire and then they invaded Israel killing thousands of civilians, and they brought back hundreds of civilian hostages, you don’t think they can tell that’s an obvious casus belli?
Israel’s strikes are the most targeted fucking strikes you’ve ever seen a military do,
Are you high? https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction/index.html
Flattening whole communities is as targeted as using a shotgun to kill a fly.
“Israeli precision is a paragon of modern warfare” I’ve mentioned the strike that hit a vehicle carrying over 70 refugees on a designated safe route, and the claimants of Israeli’s amazing military technology have had nothing to say about it.
You call it propaganda, but it’s exactly what Hamas is doing, isn’t it?
You may need to look up ‘propaganda’.
No, I know what it means, I’m accusing you of straight up lying. It’s true in every sense of the word truth, it is an accurate characterization of Hamas’s actions, you have no reason to doubt it, you just don’t like it because it’s an uncomfortable phrase. You prefer to call them “martyrs,” don’t you?
Your comments are nothing but frothing Israeli propaganda. If you aren’t lying, you are extremely misinformed of the situation.
if that were true, it would be very easy to actually respond to me instead of just flatly calling me a liar, right?
I did respond, I didn’t flatly call you a liar, I was implying that from my perspective your view seems to either be deliberately antagonistic and untrue or you are not receiving accurate coverage of the conflict. I love Jewish people, I’m not an antisemite or desire any sort of death for Jews or any other group for that matter, but the actions of Israel should be condemned, and they have engaged in massive misinformation campaigns related to Palestine for decades. This is not to say I don’t also condemn terrorism and killing of civilians by Hamas as well. But it is relevant to examine who is the original aggressor in the conflict and for what reason the conflict began.
You didn’t follow your prescription in response to my comment. So I feel your comment is just a flat out lie and you would be a liar by extension.
Buddy, you haven’t been paying attention to what’s been going on recently have you? Also, a warning drop does nothing but give people time to piss themselves if you only give a hospital a few minutes to evacuate.
Even I knew a day before it happened that they were telling people to leave the hospital with the command center tunnels under it, I saw them talking about it on the BBC so it’s a bit rich to pretend only a few minutes was given.
Hamas literally blocked roads going south and shot at civilians trying to flee the combat zone, Israel is going to great lengths to warn the Palestinian people and get them out the way while hamas are doing everything possible to make sure they can’t get out the way.
I highly doubt that. As it is the reference is to the massive number of times Israel has attacked hospitals over the years.
Israel’s strikes are the most targeted fucking strikes you’ve ever seen a military do, and they actively warn the people in those buildings with everything from roof knocking to a phone call.
That doesn’t even make sense. If the point is to destroy Hamas assets and people, there’s no sense in tipping them off about it. So either they’re doing that and destroying people’s homes for no reason, or they’re not actually doing that.
It’s not actually possible to take out military targets like that in civilian neighborhoods with air strikes in a “clean” way. Obviously the only reason they don’t go in on the ground with IDF soldiers if they actually have legitimate targets instead is because the lives of Palestinean civilians are less important than the lives of Israeli soldiers, and they know that air strikes don’t lead to any casualties on their side.
If the point is to destroy Hamas assets and people, there’s no sense in tipping them off about it.
The primary point of airstrikes is to stop the Hamas bases that fire rockets indiscriminately in the vague direction of Israel. They warn people so that people can escape, and then, if people escape, and the rockets are disabled, that’s a win-win. Of course, it would be even better if they had magic airstrikes that only disabled rockets, created protective bubbles around any civilians to protect them from any rubble, and convinced terrorists to just stop politely. But short of that, they’re going to focus on disabling the rockets and warning civilians.
Yes, they call Hamas terrorists and warn them. They’d rather everybody survive than civilians die. Hamas would rather everybody die than civilians live.
It’s not actually possible to take out military targets like that in civilian neighborhoods with air strikes in a “clean” way.
Right. Feel free to recommend something cleaner than airstrikes.
Obviously the only reason they don’t go in on the ground with IDF soldiers if they actually have legitimate targets instead is because the lives of Palestinean civilians are less important than the lives of Israeli soldiers, and they know that air strikes don’t lead to any casualties on their side.
They did go in on the ground with IDF soldiers, what news are you following?
But launching a ground invasion into Gaza every time Hamas or PIJ fired a rocket would be worse, you see how much the world is complaining (and attacking Jews) because of the current ground invasion, right? They’re calling the ground invasion a genocide. Surrounding Muslim nations have been saying that invading Gaza by ground would be an act of war against them, they’re just itching to invade Israel. Ground wars are not safe for civilians either.
Moreover, if you attack a Hamas rocket facility on ground, kill every terrorist, and let every civilian go free, the rockets and rocket-firing infrastructure are still there. You need the soldiers to stay around long enough to dismantle all that and carry the rockets away. In that time, Hamas will obviously attack the soldiers, and the escalation will inevitably result in more destruction.
How can harm be minimized here? Really? There is no sensible solution while Hamas exists. Hamas must not be allowed to continue existnig. (Nor should PIJ, for that matter). That, at this point, is the justification for a ground invasion.
"Israel says “Hi civilian we’re about to bomb this building because a Hamas target is inside. Please leave so you are not hurt.”
Hamas responds with “Go stand on the roof.”
But your suggestion is that Israel is somehow the bad guy there?
You “know” that because the very people bombing civilians told you so.
Only a very special kind of person would trust killers when they provide unverifiable “justifications” for their killings that just so happen to blame somebody else and excuse their actions.
Just so I’m clear, which aspect of what I described do you believe does not happen?
Just wanna know the right one to cite.
Hi
Please
Hamas responds with “Go stand on the roof.”
Israel warning people by phone, leaflet, and then “door knocking” while Hamas tells them to go to their roof/“form a human shield” https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/world/middleeast/by-phone-and-leaflet-israeli-attackers-warn-gazans.html?_r=0
Here’s their own words, calling all Palestinians to be martyrs
Article 8 The Hamas document reiterates the Muslim Brotherhood’s slogan of "Allah is its goal, the Prophet is the model, the Qur’an its constitution, jihad its path, and death for the sake of Allah “is the loftiest of its wishes.” https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
From wikipedia because I don’t want to read the whole charter. original charter linked below the quote (and on the Wikipedia page)
Here’s a phone call showing the greater scale of how seriously they take viewing every Palestinian as a martyr, by forcing people to remain in the North at gunpoint
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1713500050511253928?t=g9Z3zsdfyW3wxIvuMxuHVg&s=19
Warnings like?
On Saturday, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari issued what he labeled an “urgent military advisory” video message on X, warning Gazans that the military is set to “neutralize” Hamas with “precision and intensity.”
“For your immediate safety we urge all residents of Northern Gaza and Gaza City to temporarily relocate south. This is a temporary measure. Moving back to Northern Gaza will be possible once the intense hostilities end,” he said.
Since the message, many took to X to raise questions and concerns related to the communications blackout Gaza residents are facing and how they’re expected to hear the urgency to relocate.
Mehdi Hasan, host of The Mehdi Hasan Show on MSNBC, asked, “How are Palestinians in Gaza, who have had their electricity and internet communications cut off by the Israeli military, supposed to hear/receive this ‘urgent’ message from the Israeli military?”
Lindsey Hilsum, international editor at British broadcaster Channel 4 News, questioned the message by posting to X, “Hard to see how this ‘urgent message’ will get to the citizens of Gaza as the Israelis cut internet and mobile phone.”
Ayman Mohyeldin, host of AYMAN on MSNBC, noted the IDF’s use of English to issue their message rather than using Arabic.
“The spokesman for the Israeli military is speaking in English, rather than in Arabic, to the residents of Gaza in order to deliver to them an urgent message on social media, a day after the Israeli military cut off all telephone and internet communications to the people of Gaza,” he wrote on X>.
My point:
You “know” that because the very people bombing civilians told you so.
Your “evidence”:
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1713500050511253928?t=g9Z3zsdfyW3wxIvuMxuHVg&s=19 (Straight from IDF)
Openly antisemitic, Hitler-loving, pro-Hamas propagandists proudly declare how much they love it when Palestinians die. This is not uncommon on Memri TV.
Yes, because people that care about not killing Innocents would say “why don’t we go in shoot just the terrorist instead of leveling the whole block?”
Urban combat results in more civilian casualties. Urban combat is a hellish meat grinder.
Bullshit
Yes now imagine how easy it is to ambush there. Now imagine you live in the area still. How dangerous would an army be forced to view you as?
You should really read up on urban combat. Aleppo has a lot of documentation on it.
Lmao. No. You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. An Infantry fight in an urban area sucks but it’s far less destructive than leveling entire blocks with explosives.
Less destructive but more fatal to civilians.
It’s weird you don’t know this, honestly
Bullshit. Unless you’re committing war crimes left and right.
It shouldn’t be left to Israel but nobody wants to do it, so we get this cluster fuck. Other surrounding nations can help and take in Palestinian refugees/stamp out Hamas, but the truth is that they don’t actually care about Palestinians either.
but the truth is that they don’t actually care about Palestinians either.
They sure do. They care about keeping them in refugee camps, using Israel as a scapegoat for their own war crimes and other bullshit, refusing to let them work, often revoking their citizenship in the rare cases it’s been granted! Heaven forbid a third-generation descendant of a Palestinian immigrant be allowed to work in Jordan, or own a permanent home.
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza
Bibi isn’t interested in that.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
He’s openly calling for genocide.
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza. I hope the international community can come together to find a way. I definitely wouldn’t leave it to Israel lol.
Israel is going to try its best. Nobody else is going to touch this with a ten foot pole. Most of the international community isn’t even willing to condemn Hamas, let alone go in there and get rid of them. Israel literally calls them up in the buildings they’re going to bomb and says “please evacuate this building by this time!” You can’t make that shit up.
If Egypt or the UN wants to take care of Gaza after the war, and actually make sure they don’t get weapons, and actually de-radicalize them (current schools in Gaza are not great at deradicalization), you name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that. They didn’t blockade Gaza for fun, blockades are expensive. But burying the dead from the constant attacks of a Hamas with infinite weaponry is fucking worse.
You’ve lost the support of the international community and even the US is distancing itself from the approach you are taking. This is a fools errand to try to extract a part of a society by direct force (see Vietnam, Afghanistan <-two different super powers made that mistake). What this will be is an excuse to murder as judge, jury and executioner as you move to further subjugate a civilian population behind closed doors. Literal closed walls in Gaza’s case. These kids have grown up knowing nothing but what the adults tell them and looking at the walls that keep them in.
“You name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that” How about just releasing the Prisoners for the hostages and going home?
“We spoke bluntly and made it clear to the prime minister in no uncertain terms that a comprehensive deal based on the ‘everyone for everyone’ principle is a deal the families would consider, and has the support of all of Israel,” Meirav Leshem Gonen, mother of Romi Gonen, who was kidnapped from the Supernova dance festival, said on behalf of the families in a news conference following the meeting.
Netanyahu was asked about such a deal at his Saturday news conference, and acknowledged he discussed the option with the families.
“I think that elaborating on this will not help achieve our goal. In the meeting with the families, I felt emotionally helpless,” he said.So maybe not everything. Please don’t judge Dan for not responding, He blocked me an hour ago as he didn’t like my response to the justification of the 3,000 children that have been bombed to death in Gaza.
edit: deleted two words I accidentally repeated
I mean, exchanging prisoners means freeing those who massacred on oct.7, and come on, Israel is not that stupid to let them run free again. That exchange will bite them tenfold in years to come if they do it (and they realized it now, hence they don’t agree to it)
He probably blocked you because you argue in bad faith and lie about your historical examples - like pretending Vietnam wasn’t a war of two established, professional militaries just as Korea was.
“You name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that” How about just releasing the Prisoners for the hostages and going home?
This, for instance, is an insane proposition and you throw it out like it’s the obvious good choice.
Israel has traded 1000 poisoners for a single soldier in the past why is it “an insane proposition” all of a sudden? https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/world/meast/israel-prisoner-swap-explainer/index.html
You sure can’t be consistent.
You keep quacking dude don’t blame us for noticing it.I mean, some of those 1,000 prisoners were active in that recent oct.7 massacre, so I guess that Israel learned from its mistakes. As much as it pains them, they can’t effort giving Hamas forces, as they’ll regret it tenfold later.
If Israel was truly worried about regretting it later they wouldn’t be growing a whole new generation of people that have every reason to hate them. Their actions over the decades speak FAR louder than the words they use to seem like they are trying, as does the body count of innocents.
For more than the last decade Israel spent 0 efforts on raising the Gaza population and completely left them to run their own educational/inner governmental funding. That proved to be the worst mistake they could ever do, as that educational program is pure hate fuel for religious extremists and the government funding (which btw is a lot of funding from foreigners) was used for rockets and anti-tank ammunition instead of safe houses for civilians. Heck, the only safe zones are the underground tunnels, which are only used for Hamas fighters.
All that means is that Israel should’ve either completely hammer down on stuff going in, and truly be like china murdering muslims, or completely run the region themselves, which is basically colonialism. Which option is good? None. Who can be blamed for that? The Palestinians leaders.
Don’t get me wrong, Israel’s leaders also chose a very bad option of leaving it alone and letting it grow into a monster, but let’s face it - they had no good options on what to do with Gaza. So blaming everything that’s happening purely on Israel, is just unfair. What could they have done to prevent this?
If you don’t understand, from the events currently at play, that Israel is most definitely not going to exchange their prisoners for hostages, then I question if you’ve been paying attention.
Sorry the Cornell thing hurt your feelings so much, but it’s weird for you to follow me around
Im posting all over the place you keep showing up and quacking away.
You know who doesn’t think it’s insane? The families of the the hostages who I quote directly underneath that who say that it has the support of all of Israel. Are you calling them liars? Are you disparaging them and saying they’re insane? This is the opposite of diplomacy, as you say.
Yeah I think someone whose family member is fucking kidnapped is not thinking rationally. Of course they will support literally anything to get their kidnapped relative back
So you are disparaging them. Classy.
Again acknowledging reality is not endorsing any specific view.
When someone you love is a victim of a tragedy you will understand that you are not, in fact, the rational robot you think you are.
Israel is going to try it’s best
News: Israel only catches or kills a dozen Hamas fighters but kills 8k citizen civilians with over 1k children under the rubble.
Bullshit.
- Israel has killed dozens of Hamas leaders, but way more fighters. There’s no way to know exactly how many, since Hamas doesn’t even pretend to put out numbers that separate civilians from combatants.
- The 8k number also comes from Hamas, the same people who said that 500 people died in the hospital explosion (and blamed it on Israel). Go see the estimates literally anybody else made. All of these numbers come from Hamas.
- That 8k number also includes all deaths, not just at the hands of Israel, but at the hands of PIJ and Hamas themselves. Hundreds of their rockets have landed in Gaza, and they’ve been known to execute their own. They really love to blame Israel for these deaths, though—not just in the case of the hospital when they can make up a specific cause, but in the cases you’ve never heard of where, oh, there’s rubble, what caused it, don’t worry.
The death of each Palestinian civilian is a tragedy. Hamas provoked the war, Hamas is killing as many of them as anybody. Israel is engaged in remarkably precise targeting of enemy combatants and places an entirely unprecedented effort into warning them when they’re about to strike.
This is urban warfare. This is what Hamas called for.
The 8k number is confirmed by many organizations. The whole idea that the number is disputed comes from American politics.
It’s amazing that Israel is always the victim, yet never does anything wrong.
The 8k number is confirmed by many organizations.
name one.
Here’s a list: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/
I bolded them for you
U.N. and other international agencies say there can be small discrepancies between the final casualty numbers and those reported by the Gaza health ministry straight after attacks, but that they broadly trust them.
“We continue to include their data in our reporting and it is clearly sourced,” the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said in a statement to Reuters.
“It is nearly impossible at the moment to provide any UN verification on a day-to-day basis.”
Dr Mike Ryan, Executive Director of the Geneva-based World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Programme, said last week figures released by both sides “may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis, but they grossly reflect the level of death and injury on both sides of that conflict.”
New York-based Human Rights Watch also says the casualty figures have generally been reliable, and that it has not found big discrepancies in its verification of past strikes on Gaza.
“It’s worth noting that the numbers that are coming out since October 7th are generally consistent or within logic for the scale of killings one would expect, given the intensity of bombardment in such a densely populated area,” Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine Director at Human Rights Watch, said.
“Those numbers are in line with what one might expect, given what we’re seeing on the ground through testimony, through satellite imagery and otherwise,” he told Reuters.
Dan probably blocked you for that one.
The 8k number also comes from Hamas, the same people who said that 500 people died in the hospital explosion (and blamed it on Israel). Go see the estimates literally anybody else made. All of these numbers come from Hamas.
You know this is propaganda right? That number never came from Hamas go find them quoting it as fact, I’ll wait.
The number came from an interview with a doctor right after the attack and it was mistranslated on Aljazeera. Other news agencies never fact checked it and ran with the number attributing it to Hamas.
The number of casualities there was 471. 500 is an acceptable estimate.
(sorry, I don’t know why I never posted this, I have way too many tabs open)
You know this is propaganda right? That number never came from Hamas go find them quoting it as fact, I’ll wait.
Well, let’s see, where did the Telegraph get its 8,000 number from?
On Sunday the Hamas-controlled Gaza health ministry claimed the death toll among Palestinians passed 8,000, with most of them women and children.
… gee, I didn’t even have to dig one layer deep, the Telegraph itself tells you it’s from Hamas. =/
Let’s focus on the 500, though, who cites the number as a Hamas claim verified by literally nobody else?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-blast-deaths.html
And who else commented on the number?
the Al-shifa hospital director, who estimated it was half of that.
But Hamas just knew in less than 20 minutes, somehow, that it was 500.
The number came from an interview with a doctor right after the attack and it was mistranslated on Aljazeera.
Does the doctor work for Hamas?
Gee, I wonder how a Hamas employed doctor managed to count 500 dead bodies within 20 minutes. Israel is still trying to tally its dead, but Hamas managed to pronounce 500 people dead just in time to falsely accuse Israel of attacking the hospital on Al Jazeera?
I thought I blocked your genocide apologizing ass… well that’s fixed now.
The first step to deradicalize them is to stop putting Palestinians in a concentration camp. Simple as.
What a strange concentration camp that was, where Palestinians were able to go into Israel to work every day, travel abroad, etc. Almost like most other national borders (except for Schengen), where you need a passport and maybe even a visa to enter. Or like the US, where you’re not allowed in if they even suspect you’re going to work. Also, let’s not forget the terrorists that constantly threaten to kill your citizens. Would you let them into your house?
In 2011, a panel of UN experts concluded that the naval blockade of Gaza constituted collective punishment and in doing so violated international law, contradicting a previous UN investigation that declared it was legal.[215]
The UN is very one-sided on this conflict. I was surprised to watch a documentary on the history of the Israeli - Palestine conflict, made by the UN, and it didn’t mention Hamas or their attacks at all. I expected better from the UN, but here we are.
Yes, the UN is sided with the victims, not with a apartheid state.
Yes, because this is just one powerful country killing an entire population of innocent people, and for absolutely no reason. That’s what’s happening. No nuance, no history, nothing. Just this one event, completely isolated and all black and white.
Congrats on your firm grip on reality.
So which is it, are they being allowed freedom of movement into Israel to work with identification, or you don’t want them in because they’re terrorists who threaten to kill civilians?
All I’ve seen is that some people were allowed in and out, but it isn’t exactly a porous border, identification requirements are strict, getting the necessary approval and documentation is difficult in a place without a functioning state. And you can’t just make rules and distance yourself from the consequences of them just because people are unable to meet the requirements of those rules, you have to actually look at what the effect is.
So you don’t think border control is justified given the presence of terrorists?
I agree that consequences should be taken into consideration, and I assume you don’t think they were in this case.
What’s your solution? What would you have done?
Those Gazans with work permits are now being illegally detained in Israel.
Define “illegal” in a war.
Against international law, not that Israel cares
Please point me to the international law (I assume you mean the Geneva Convention) that says that you can’t take prisoners.
The debacle prompted criticism even from allies who said Netanyahu had facilitated Hamas’s grip on Gaza as part of a strategy to divide Palestinians.
“Since coming to power in 2009, Netanyahu has built up Hamas as an alternative to the Palestinian Authority,” wrote Yoav Limor, the military affairs correspondent for Israel Hayom, a normally pro-Netanyahu newspaper. “He was warned countless times that this was a dangerous plan: instead of bolstering the pragmatic elements, he strengthened those that will never recognize Israel’s existence.”
Even normally pro-Israeli news outlets are condemning what is happening. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/israeli-tanks-on-outskirts-of-gaza-city-with-key-road-cut
Israel doesn’t really want to be rid of Hamas.
Their investment in the group has already paid dividends.
Memri TV is literally Israeli propaganda.
How are they calling to warn anyone? The entire communications infrastructure is so compromised that ambulances are literally just driving towards the sound of explosions rather than being directed.
There’s a lot of ways, I’ve seen leaflet drops, radio (windup fm radios are widely used), telephone calls (mobile) and drones with speakers being used but I’m sure they’re also using other methods too
Well no you still need infrastructure for mobile. And there are no reports of drones with speakers. The IDF method was dropping a dud first and they aren’t doing that anymore because the mission intensity is too high to sustain it.
Well, Gaza’s internet and phone services are up again, but if you’d been paying attention, you know that, in addition, they’ve also been using roof knocking, and also dropping flyers, and every other fucking thing they can manage to warn civilians on every time scale. If you have any other idea how Israel should disable rocket facilities, feel free.
Preferably with something smaller than a 2,000 lb bomb. And a flyers bearing a general warning to evacuate does not count when you won’t let them through your lines. It’s no different to the school bully holding their victim down and “warning” them they’re going to get hit.
And even if the Internet is back now, how did they warn anyone in the same 48 hours they bombed even more than before?
And no. They aren’t doing knocking. That’s something they do in limited operations. Not now.
If Egypt or the UN wants to take care of Gaza after the war, and actually make sure they don’t get weapons, and actually de-radicalize them (current schools in Gaza are not great at deradicalization), you name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that.
Basically turn them into a mini West bank; people with no means to defend themselves, constantly getting attacked by settlers and the police. Make them believe that this is normal and that they shouldn’t defend themselves on your way out.
There are no settlements in Gaza. In 2005, there were no settlements, there was no blockade, there was nothing but an opportunity for peace, and then, they elected Hamas.
If you’re afraid that Egypt or the UN is going to invite settlers in, that Egyptian police or the UN police are going to attack them, you might want to reevaluate your world view.
Let’s discuss another place inside of Palestine where there is an opportunity for peace; the West bank ruled by the Fatah government, which recognizes “Israel”. They also have no weapons that they can realistically use against settlers and the invading army.
Here’s what happens in the West bank, settlements exist in the West bank, settlers murder people in the West bank, and the police are protecting settlers while they’re doing it.
Gaza once was under the control of the PLO and Fatah, and there could’ve been peace, if not for Isn’trael opting to keep building settlements, encouraging people who’re being forced out of their homes to pick the more violent approach of Hamas. Which unlike negotiating with an occupying force, did get them to dismantle their disgusting settlements and leave to avoid losing more soldiers.
You’re dramatically oversimplifying the West Bank. It’s a military occupation, I’m not going to pretend it’s going well, but it’s going much better than Gaza, and peace talks there have been far more serious. The Olmert proposal was an exceedingly generous proposal, and the reason Abbas didn’t engage because, knowing that Hamas still had enough power that he couldn’t promise peace, not even with East Jerusalem, and especially not with any kind of land swaps. The core problem right now is just that Netanyahu’s government doesn’t actually want to make the situation better (and a lot of his —but that problem will resolve itself by Israel’s next election. His already low approval ratings have hit the gutter, and his coalition might not last much longer, although they might stick together while the war is going on.
Hamas doesn’t exist in a vacuum though. Most people don’t just wake up one day and think “hmm, terrorism sounds good to me today!” There’s always going to be a minority of people who end up having extremist views and committing violence, but a functioning state is able to keep those people under control. The fact that Netanyahu has no motivation to make the situation better is directly what causes this situation where people help Hamas out of desperation. They can’t wait for Israelis to get their act together and elect someone who is strongly motivated to make life better for Palestineans, they see that they have to live on the other side of a wall where only they have to deal with that level of poverty and violence on a regular basis and it’s unfair. If you put yourself in their shoes you’d get it too. That’s not a justification at all, it’s just empathy for their situation.
I can also empathize with Israelis who want revenge. People in Israel expect safety and don’t think of their country as a war-zone. It’s easy to think of the problem as entirely one-sided when you don’t have to deal with it, but it’s just not the case.
Not making their only other choice an Israeli puppet would be a great start. Hamas is reactionary. Getting rid of the abuse would go a long way to putting a cap on the reaction.
You could only ACTUALLY get rid of Hamas by getting rid of the current Israeli leadership, because even if you actually knocked out Hamas themselves, the Israeli leadership will just gin up a replacement Hamas to be their strawman in Gaza until they’ve bombed their way into settlerizing Gaza same way they’re doing to the West Bank.
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza.
There is a way, it’s just excruciatingly difficult and has no chance of happening.
People will excess wealth will need to give up some of that wealth so others can have more.
For example, increasing immigration limits to the US and giving refugees the means to contribute to society, such as housing and utilities. It shouldn’t just be the US, either. All nations with excess can pitch in to help. This can be done, but the hand-sitters among us are already chomping at the bit to tell us why it can’t.
you deny what “palestinians” have given themselves generationally to achieve with hamas, pij, hezbollah, the plo. you deny “palestinians” their personhood in their singular terrorist fight against jews, and for the destruction of israel, the communal refusal to live in peace, when you think there is any daylight at all whatsoever between the “palestinian” community and jew raping, slaughtering, and burning islamic terrorists.
who do you think makes up these groups, whose sons, and husbands and grandfathers do you think these fucking terrorist animals are, where do you think they sleep at night, whose table do you think they eat at?
amazing
Each of these individual elements is not in and of itself fascist, but you have to worry when they’re all grouped together, when honest conservatives are lured into fascism by people who tell them, “Look, it’s an existential fight. I know you don’t accept everything we do. You don’t accept every doctrine. But your family is under threat. Your family is at risk. So without us, you’re in peril.” Those moments are the times when we need to worry about fascism.
On Lemmy, we are past the point of denying Palestinians exist or putting that word between brackets.
This shit won’t fly here. You can’t start a sentence by denying a whole group exists.
I wonder what percentage of their rapidly diminishing military might is being used to block foreigners from leaving? seems like a poor allocation of resources… unless there’s something they dont want the foreigners to tell the outside world?
It’s not like they ever had a chance of winning considering their definition of winning is driving the Jews into the sea. Their whole purpose is to fuck shit up and cause maximum damage and this makes sense in that context.
that’s their endgame? how does that work when they’re surrounded on all sides (counting the sea)?
If you want an actual answer they want the Islamic world to unite and kill everyone else, it’s been a pretty constant theme for a while now from middle Eastern terror groups.
That’s why the fundamentalists in change (and not living in Gaza) wanted to commit an attack Israel could not ignore, nation’s like Saudi Arabia and Jordan we’re getting on too well with Israel and that would ruin their chances for a middle Eastern caliphate…
ah, a pipe dream then. gotcha. yeah, caliphates arent going to make a comeback.
Yes, they’re funding terrorism based on an absurd pipedream that they use to maintain their own power, sadly a very common story.
Not while America is willing to invade and bomb anyone that tries, and everyone around them when they do.
Pretty sure their definition of winning is not getting genocide by said Jews
Then think again. They literally say what their goal is - a forceful end to Israel. And that nothing less will be enough - and that they’ll keep killing civilians until that goal is met.
From the footage at Rafah, feels like hundreds of foreign nationals are gathered waiting an okay from Israel and Egypt. I don’t see WHY Hamas would even care to stop Palestinian Americans from leaving to the states.
Hamas intends to use those people as leverage to get their home countries to exert pressure on Israel. Hamas is basically taking them hostage.
Is there any source for that idea, or that this is actually happening? The only source for this article are US officials, who are full-throated allies of Israel, so there likely could be a bias. Telegraph is widely known as biased.
I’m just saying that a group that has taken ACTUAL hostages certainly isn’t above using foreign nationals as quasi-hostages to pressure other countries to exert influence on Israel to get them to stop shelling Gaza.
I have failed to find any statement made by Egypt to confirm this.
No evidence for that though
Home counties?
Meatshield
It’s not like that stops Israel from butchering civilians anyway, so again how does this work?
To downvoters: It’s a fact that Israel is killing civilians while trying to kill Hamas fighters. After killing nearly 8.5k civilians, they got maybe a couple of dozen of Hamas fighters “dead”, but how would they even be able to confirm it when they aren’t in Gaza? It’s a known indisputable fact that the so-called “human shield” used by Hamas has never stopped and will never stop Israel from shooting or bombing the civlian population.
But again, it’s because “proximity shielding” is something countries made up so they can do genocide or accomplish whatever urban warfare goal while at the same time not giving a single fuck about the lives of civilians or hostages in that area.
Their intent is that by their “martyring” Palestinian civilians, they’ll be able to use their deaths as PR against Israel.
Yes, that is a cynical take. That’s how Hamas operates.
I think there was no intent. I think Israel used proximity shielding like the US did as an excuse to kill civilians.
why do you people think Israel wants to kill civilians? Do you really think the IDF is just hundreds of thousands of monsters who love killing? What is wrong with you people?
Because it keeps doing so, documented by far too many human rights organizations and bodies already for nothing to have changed.
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They don’t see the Palestinians, they see the Americans, and Americans are hostages and also decadents who deserve being knocked down a peg
Hmmm… Pretty sure the majority of those looked like American Palestinians. They are not bargaining chips since not even their own government cared enough to lift a finger and get them out.
Right now, the Israelis are bombing the Rafah crossing and blaming Hamas for the dead.
Pretty much, yes. In fact they have caused road problems on two occasions that took days of repair.
Hamas doesn’t need to do anything. All they have to do is say nobody’s getting out, which means the IDF can assume anyone running towards the exit is a terrorist making an attack. I think any foreign nationals that would ever travel to Gaza know better than to approach Israeli forces for help.
If there’s anyone that doesn’t want the outside world to know what’s up, ask the folks who recently cut off internet access to Gaza. Who was it? It wasn’t Hamas.
Do you seriously think Israel shut off internet to hide what’s inside? Do you know satellites exist? Do you know cameras exist? How in the world was that preventing anyone from seeing into Gaza?
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Try to think as an army for just a second. When you send your troops into unknown territory which is 100% trapped, you wanna confuse your enemy. And shutting communication is exactly that.
It absolutely fails at hiding what’s going on in Gaza from being revealed, but it *50% succeeds in making their enemies blind during their attack. It’s just a military tactic. A proven and effective one.
“palestianians”. use. human. fucking. shields. fuck. fuck. fuck. fuck. fuck.
Israel will strike an area and kill hundreds of people. If there are males 16-30 killed they will say they were militants often, and that the civilians were collateral damage due to the use of proximity shielding. They do not go in and verify whether or not the people killed were militants. This is an age old tactic, the US would do the same to shift blame for atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I know as far back as the Vietnam War too. I’m sure even before that
oh, ok. ok. ok. ok. ok.
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not incorrect, but it’s a common tactic used in Asymmetrical Warfare that is seen in the Levant when one side dwarf the other in conventional military size and strength
is it honorable? no, but it one of the few tactics hamas has in operating against Israel
Fuck You
very nice
As an atheist, I’ve generally avoided that area of the world. I’m quite happy to not be directly involved in this stupidity.
cowards like you said the same thing while they were shipping jews to auschwitz in cattle cars. nothing ever changes.
Oh yes, the old “I’m an atheist so I avoid Germany” argument we’ve all heard a thousand times
No need to ship em anywhere if you have them all surrounded in a prison called Gaza and drop death on em. ^Say’s the coward that complains about people being able to see your racist and fascistic posts after you block them. “why can’t I say these horrific things without anyone dissenting!”
being against Israel doesn’t mean you hate Jews you fucking weirdo
Nazis were explicitly Christian lol
Nazi Germany was overwhelmingly Christian. The athiests of the time were fighting or contributing to the war efforts of their country just like every other person was. There just wasn’t too many openly atheistic people due to the discrimination at the time.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
Who’s doing an auschwitz again?
I’m a coward?
“Israel blocks anyone and anything from going into or out of Gaza.”
You know Gaza has border with Egypt? That’s not possible
The Rafah Border Crossing is the only crossing point between Egypt and the Gaza Strip. It lies on the international border that was confirmed by the 1979 Egypt–Israel peace treaty and the 1982 Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula. The Rafah Border Crossing can only be used for the passage of persons. All goods traffic must use the Kerem Shalom border crossing on the Israel-Gaza border.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Gaza_border
The Rafah Land Port became the primary border crossing between Egypt and Gaza, managed by the Israel Airports Authority until Israel had dismantled its settlements in Gaza on 11 September 2005 as part of a disengagement plan. It subsequently became the task of the European Union Border Assistance Mission Rafah (EUBAM) to monitor the crossing.
In the 2023 Israel–Hamas war that began in October, the crossing was again effectively sealed. The Egyptian government refused to allow either Gazans or foreign nationals to exit Gaza via the Rafah crossing, despite intensive international efforts to secure a window of time for the Rafah crossing to open to foreigners who want to exit the Strip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing
The Philadelphi Route, also called Philadelphi Corridor, is a narrow strip of land, 14 km (8.699 miles) in length, situated along the entirety of the border between Gaza Strip and Egypt. Under the provisions of the Egypt–Israel peace treaty of 1979, it was established as a buffer zone controlled and patrolled by Israeli forces. One purpose of the Philadelphi Route was to prevent the movement of illegal materials (including weapons and ammunition) and people between Egypt and the Gaza Strip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphi_Route
Tl;Dr: Europe, Egypt and Israel all play a part in managing that border. The only party that has zero control over this border is Gaza.
Oh damn, I just looked at a map, and Gaza also borders the ocean. Clearly people and goods can flow freely in/out of Gaza that way also. My mistake.
But what about the Egyptian side, is Israel in your opinion blocking that too?
Israel in your opinion blocking that too?
https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-bombs-southern-gaza
Despite urging Palestinians and others caught in Gaza to flee the northern areas, bombings that claimed the lives of yet more civilians—including children—were reported in Khan Younis and the city of Rafah.
The attacks came hours after the IDF’s Rear Adm Daniel Hagari called on Gaza’s residents to move south “for your own safety.”
Rafah is directly opposite the Egyptian border.
While the Egyptian government has made clear that it refuses to accept large numbers of Palestinian refugees from Gaza, fearful of the political and security repercussions, it has ordered hospitals in northern Sinai and elsewhere to prepare to take in wounded patients from the enclave — as they have during past rounds of fighting. As Israel pummels besieged Gaza, Egypt resists opening up to refugees
“This border is open to take in any injured,” said Diaa Rashwan, head of Egypt’s State Information Service, at a news conference in front of the Rafah crossing Tuesday. He added that the World Health Organization has inspected “all the hospitals and medical facilities” but that “the occupying forces prevent the crossing from the Palestinian side” — a reference to Israel.
So no, Israel isn’t blocking that
Try crossing a bridge as a bomb lands on it.
Have they bombed the bridge crossing?
No. Egypt is blocking that. Egypt is paid inordinate amounts of money by the US to do so.
So it’s not just Israel
No it isn’t. Does it have to be? Do you think the Israeli government takes a neutral position on the Rafah border crossing? Israel is the primary prosecutor of this genocide. They are assisted and enabled largely by the US, which also dictates (client state) Egypt’s policies in this regard.
See first comment of this comment chain
Egypt stopped allowing Palestinians to cross when refugee members of the Muslim Brotherhood (intimately tied to Hamas, and from which Hamas is an offshoot) co-opted the 2011 protests to seize control of the country.
Imagine how Egypt would look if their pro-democracy, pro-socialist revolution wasn’t fucked by Hamas the same way Gaza has been.
The military runs Egypt, and they do what the US wants, which aligns with what Israel wants.
Lol everyone must kneel before the Great Satan
Jesus you guys are fuckin insane.
No. They don’t have access to their sea borders. They get shot if they go out too far.
Naive
Is the Telegraph a good source for info on this?
The Torygraph is a step up from the lowest tier tabloid.
“Palestinians” never met a human shield they wouldn’t call their own
Fun fact! ^He puts Palestinians in quotation marks because he doesn’t believe they have any right to the land, can’t claim it as a real country and because he thinks none of them are civilians and are actually all terrorists. The more you know!
Imagine if we put “Israelis” or “Jews” between quotes like that. What would be their reaction?
No one is an “Israeli”. They’re either a Jewish citizen of Palestine, an outsider in Palestine, or a disgusting settler living in someone else’s house (not even human).
Of course they are human. Humans take other people’s homes, too.
And while I agree with your overall point, I don’t think it’s helpful to deny anyone their identity. Israelis are citizens of Israel and they and their government have a chance to set this all right and not be a goddamn apartheid ethnostate.
