It’s this kind of rhetoric that prevents productive conversation. If we want anyone to change their minds the first step is to talk to them person to person, not boil someone down to black and white beliefs. People are more nuanced than that.
I can talk person to person with reasonable people. I do not find people reasonable that hate others for their skin color, their faith, or their identity, instead of hating them for their actions. I do not find people reasonable that want to exterminate those. I also do not find people reasonable that do not care about those being hated and death being wished upon them just because they are fiscally conservative .
My problem with “centrists” is that they’re using the word to avoid consequences for the hatred they spew online. Those “centrists” claim to be centrists but the only issues they ever talk about are right-wing issues, 99% of the time the culture war that they wage. Just say you’re republican and make it easy for me, I don’t care if we agree or disagree on other issues at the current time, if you think that exterminating different people is okay you cannot convince me of anything anymore.
It’s not even that black and white, because the term democrat and republican as far as political views mean much different things when it comes to different ages, backgrounds, area, etc.
For example, I tend to lean right when it comes to economics, however I do support things like public healthcare. Also, I lean pretty far left on social issues.
There are people all over the spectrum on all sorts of issues. I can see where it bothers people to be labeled one or the other because that’s not really who they are. I truly try to break candidates down by what their stances are and pick who most aligns with what I believe. I can honestly say every ballot I’ve ever cast I’ve voted for both Democrats and Republicans.
The only people I have a problem with is people that try to tell me I’m stupid because i didn’t vote all one way or the other.
There is a saying that if you have 9 people at a table and a nazi takes a seat you have ten nazis at a table. Inaction against damaging retoric is bad, but actively voting for it is worse. I know the whole nazi thing is very charged right now, but that isn’t the point.
If you vote for a republican than you are voting for another person in congress to push the party line. They may not agree with stopping bills that are good for the environment, but if they want to get reelected than they will vote how the party wants when it really matters.
Any vote for a republican is a vote for general public life to be worse for everyone. Your taxes will go up, trump made sure his tax hikes would all hit during the Biden administration, that isn’t an accident. And you will get less use out of your tax money with Republicans in charge. So what do you gain by voting for them?
A large issue with the US system is we have no left wing party. We have the Cia and fbi attacking leftist ideas across the world and domestic. And we have no option to vote for a party that says, “hey, we have enough, let’s make sure all of our citizens can eat” it shouldn’t be such a revolutionary thought.
You’re in favour of bloated government spending, the rich owning politicians, tax breaks for billionaires, increased taxes for the working class, companies polluting for free, fossil fuel subsidies, and increased healthcare costs to both the government and the individual to subsidize insurance companies?
Why would I talk person to person with reasonable people? Even if they check all your boxes and don’t hate anyone, if they’re not about moving us forward already, why would I be so egotistical as to think I’ll be the one to change that? If pigs want to wallow, let them. I am not the servant of any man, be it a boss or a dumbass.
You can’t talk to them person to person. That type of persuasion works in matters when the other person is operating in the cerebral realm of logic. The problem in politics is that we’re operating in the realm of identity, and you cannot reason somebody out of a matter of personal identity, because the brain treats threats to personal identity the same way as physical threats. Especially when it is a closed belief system that defines politics as tribal combat, veracity as irrelevant, any information that comes from outside the tribe as per se objectionable, and agreement as a failure of will.
Basically, the psychological research funds that you have to take them out of the Q/MAGA bubble, and surround them with people with diverse views. It can’t be done in online forums. I’ve tried. If you listen, you just get regurgitated talking points, and if you ask questions that start to make them think they abruptly disengage.
Especially when it is a closed belief system that defines politics as tribal combat
Is this not exactly what people are doing by making sweeping generalizations about others? I get you have had bad experiences, and I don’t doubt it in the slightest; however, saying that
You can’t talk to them person to person
seems very problematic. Yes, there are plenty of bad actors and people who will argue in bad faith, but there are also those who literally have never been exposed to different ways of thinking. There are those who have succumbed to the outrage machine. There are those who may just need a small nudge to challenge these beliefs they’ve been spoonfed their whole life.
The moment that you write off a whole group of people based on political beliefs, you write off any chance you have to change minds.
There’s a difference between prescriptive and descriptive, between saying what should be, and what is. I’m telling you the result of my empirical observations. You are welcome to try changing minds of people in the MAGA world. Don’t let me stop you. I’m just pointing out why it won’t work.
It’s this kind of rhetoric that prevents productive conversation. If we want anyone to change their minds the first step is to talk to them person to person, not boil someone down to black and white beliefs. People are more nuanced than that.
I can talk person to person with reasonable people. I do not find people reasonable that hate others for their skin color, their faith, or their identity, instead of hating them for their actions. I do not find people reasonable that want to exterminate those. I also do not find people reasonable that do not care about those being hated and death being wished upon them just because they are fiscally conservative .
My problem with “centrists” is that they’re using the word to avoid consequences for the hatred they spew online. Those “centrists” claim to be centrists but the only issues they ever talk about are right-wing issues, 99% of the time the culture war that they wage. Just say you’re republican and make it easy for me, I don’t care if we agree or disagree on other issues at the current time, if you think that exterminating different people is okay you cannot convince me of anything anymore.
It’s not even that black and white, because the term democrat and republican as far as political views mean much different things when it comes to different ages, backgrounds, area, etc.
For example, I tend to lean right when it comes to economics, however I do support things like public healthcare. Also, I lean pretty far left on social issues.
There are people all over the spectrum on all sorts of issues. I can see where it bothers people to be labeled one or the other because that’s not really who they are. I truly try to break candidates down by what their stances are and pick who most aligns with what I believe. I can honestly say every ballot I’ve ever cast I’ve voted for both Democrats and Republicans.
The only people I have a problem with is people that try to tell me I’m stupid because i didn’t vote all one way or the other.
There is a saying that if you have 9 people at a table and a nazi takes a seat you have ten nazis at a table. Inaction against damaging retoric is bad, but actively voting for it is worse. I know the whole nazi thing is very charged right now, but that isn’t the point.
If you vote for a republican than you are voting for another person in congress to push the party line. They may not agree with stopping bills that are good for the environment, but if they want to get reelected than they will vote how the party wants when it really matters.
Any vote for a republican is a vote for general public life to be worse for everyone. Your taxes will go up, trump made sure his tax hikes would all hit during the Biden administration, that isn’t an accident. And you will get less use out of your tax money with Republicans in charge. So what do you gain by voting for them?
The Nazi thing is extreme, but I get what you are saying.
I’m also not disagreeing with your overall message but it’s my opinion on why the current political scope in the US is the way it is.
A large issue with the US system is we have no left wing party. We have the Cia and fbi attacking leftist ideas across the world and domestic. And we have no option to vote for a party that says, “hey, we have enough, let’s make sure all of our citizens can eat” it shouldn’t be such a revolutionary thought.
You’re in favour of bloated government spending, the rich owning politicians, tax breaks for billionaires, increased taxes for the working class, companies polluting for free, fossil fuel subsidies, and increased healthcare costs to both the government and the individual to subsidize insurance companies?
Not really, some of those things yes but others no.
Well those are all right wing economics. Maybe you could be more specific
I have some people here telling me I’m a leftist, and others right.
Guess that kind of proves my point I’m not really left or right
Why would I talk person to person with reasonable people? Even if they check all your boxes and don’t hate anyone, if they’re not about moving us forward already, why would I be so egotistical as to think I’ll be the one to change that? If pigs want to wallow, let them. I am not the servant of any man, be it a boss or a dumbass.
You can’t talk to them person to person. That type of persuasion works in matters when the other person is operating in the cerebral realm of logic. The problem in politics is that we’re operating in the realm of identity, and you cannot reason somebody out of a matter of personal identity, because the brain treats threats to personal identity the same way as physical threats. Especially when it is a closed belief system that defines politics as tribal combat, veracity as irrelevant, any information that comes from outside the tribe as per se objectionable, and agreement as a failure of will.
Basically, the psychological research funds that you have to take them out of the Q/MAGA bubble, and surround them with people with diverse views. It can’t be done in online forums. I’ve tried. If you listen, you just get regurgitated talking points, and if you ask questions that start to make them think they abruptly disengage.
Is this not exactly what people are doing by making sweeping generalizations about others? I get you have had bad experiences, and I don’t doubt it in the slightest; however, saying that
seems very problematic. Yes, there are plenty of bad actors and people who will argue in bad faith, but there are also those who literally have never been exposed to different ways of thinking. There are those who have succumbed to the outrage machine. There are those who may just need a small nudge to challenge these beliefs they’ve been spoonfed their whole life.
The moment that you write off a whole group of people based on political beliefs, you write off any chance you have to change minds.
There’s a difference between prescriptive and descriptive, between saying what should be, and what is. I’m telling you the result of my empirical observations. You are welcome to try changing minds of people in the MAGA world. Don’t let me stop you. I’m just pointing out why it won’t work.
Sorry. I won’t stop calling a spade a spade.